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Predestination:
- Thread starter Berean
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Yes. I believe this is supported in the fact that Jesus is revealed to be the Lamb slain from the creation of the world (Rev 13:8), chosen before the foundation of the world (1 Pt. 1:20).
But did he also have real free will though? as we do not since his fall, but did he?
We had just as much free-will as did Adam.
How so, as he was without a sin nature to hinder him, while we all have it?
Scripture tells us what happened with Adam. Nowhere (in the Bible) is it said that his nature changed. We have the same freedom to choose as did Adam, and we commit sin just as did Adam.
Adam was created without a sin nature, while we all have one since the fall of Adam!
Adfam nature changed when he fell!
I'm sorry, what verse was that?
Jon, for clarification, are you arguing that God created Adam as a sinner and a flawed being?
No, brother. For clarification, I believe God created Adam with the same nature as you and I - a human nature. I also believe Jesus took upon himself this nature when he became human. But Adam sinned and through his sin death entered the world and spread to all men for all have sinned. But I do not believe we are created with a different nature than Adam.
Okay
You believe that all humans, whether they be Adam or all other humans have the same nature.
Would sin nature be a myth?
I am not sure. I suppose it depends on how it is defined. I believe we all sin but each sin is wilful rebellion rather than something beyond our responsibility. I guess you could say I believe our sin to be more a matter of the will than how we are created.
That said, I am open to Scripture stating otherwise.
So...I did a Google search (really spiritual though [emoji41]) and came across this Web page talking about various thoughts on the sin nature. Some views I had heard, but the last one was one I had not heard, which argues the fall resulted in a removal of God's indwelling Spirit, which resulted in death. Humans are consequently born without the indwelling Spirit of God and thus die. We sin because we do not have the Spirit of God to keep us from sinning. (This is a very general attempt to summarize. Take a look and share your thoughts.)
What is the ‘Sinful Nature’? A Bible Study
That is interesting, and I also have never heard of this position. This is how I see God working through history (God does not author evil, but rather loosens the reigns of his restraining Spirit). I don’t know, however, if this version of a “fallen nature” helps. I say this because if God withdrawing His Spirit caused human nature to be a fallen sin nature then God’s Spirit worked to restrain what was already a sin nature.
I think there is another option as well. Adam was created perfect, but Adam sinned when he submitted to his own will rather than God’s will. Even before the sin there was a something (I believe human will) that pointed inward. God commanded one thing, but desire pointed to something else. Adam, tempted as all men are tempted (not by God but by their own desires) allowed temptation to take root and produce sin.
I think we sometimes forget that Adam made the decision to eat before he ate. And this decision was based on Adam’s desire (the motivation to eat the fruit was there before Adam ate the fruit).
So we are not sinners until we sin?
Do we sin because we are sinners or are we sinners because we sin?
I never said that we are not sinners until we sin. I believe we sin because we, like Adam, have human desires that we look to above obeying God.
Scripture tells us that something did change when Adam ate of the fruit. His eyes were opened and, like God (who does not have a sin nature), Adam had a knowledge of good and evil. So where does that leave us? The effect of the fall on Adam was that his eyes were opened to the knowledge of good and evil. This seems to suggest a choice given rather than a choice removed. I believe that mankind, having their eyes opened to good and evil, will choose poorly as we place ourselves over God.
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The more I think about it, I'm not sure that we can say that "sin nature" is human nature absent the Spirit of God. The reason is that when Adam sinned there was not something removed, but something gained. He gained a knowledge of good and evil (like God has a knowledge of good and evil). So perhaps it is more an issue that Adam was created perfect but without knowing good and evil. Having that knowledge, Adam (and mankind) put himself in the place of God and chooses selfishly. This can, I suppose, be called a "sin nature" because we all do sin. But I think it is based on our wills rather than our nature (if there is a difference).
So, do we sin because we are sinners or are we sinners because we sin?
I do not believe there are sinless sinners, so I suppose one is a sinner when he or she sins (I don't think Adam was a sinner before he ate of the Tree). That said, we are tempted by what we desire.
What we know is what Paul shares in Romans 5.
Romans 5
[12]When Adam sinned, sin entered the world. Adam’s sin brought death, so death spread to everyone, for everyone sinned. (NLT)
Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned-- (NASB)
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (KJV)
How does this verse inform our understanding of the human condition before and after the fall. Does it imply a change in nature?
It certainly states that something new was introduced into the world, which resulted in death. Cause and effect.
Was the cause agent and effect predestined?
My answer is...yes.
What I may never know is...why. Why did God ordain such a cause and effect upon the world He created? I do not know. Yet, I trust God's plan despite my failure to understand.
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