Spiritual understanding - part 8

[Martin Marprelate]

The fundamental objection to spiritual interpretation/understanding of prophecy is the assumed doctrine of the second of Christ. Must be personal, visible to all and physical and glorious.

You are confusing spiritual interpretation with Preterism. It is possible to believe in the first without accepting the second. I think you should be honest and rename this thread 'Preterism' because it seems to have precious little to do with spiritual interpretation.

The unbelieving Jews saw Jesus, but did not see him, heard him but did not hear him. E.g. Isaiah 6, John 8, John 12, Acts 28,

Why insist on the physical?

Because the Bible insists upon the physical. Acts 1:11 and Revelation 1:7 do not refute spiritual interpretation but they do refute preterism. Did the believing Jews see Jesus in AD 70? I think you'll find they didn't.

In what way was/will be John 14:3 fulfilled?

On the Last day, when believers are united to their resurrection bodies, they will rise to meet the Lord in the air and so be with Him forever (1 Thessalonians 4:16-18).

When Jesus spoke of coming in Luke 21:27 the context relates to the destruction. Can we believe him?

Of course we can believe Him, but if we mistakenly believe that the context of Luke 21:27 is AD 70, we shall be misunderstanding Him.

 

[Yeshua1]

If you actually read my posts, without blinders on, you would see that I believe in a future coming of Jesus for resurrection & judgment, when he will establish the New Heaven & New Earth.

Jesus in his Olivet prophecy taught that he would come for the destruction of Jerusalem & the temple in the lifetime of the generation that so bitterly opposed & rejected him. The must be a sense in which he came or was present in the clouds at that time, or his prophecy failed & the scoffers were vindicated.

Daniel saw Jesus come in the clouds - when he ascended in victory.

Dan. 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. 14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.​

Mark 14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.​

He is presently reigning as King of kings & Lord of lords, & he is present with his people:

Mat. 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.​

We are not struggling without him at present - he is with us constantly. As he said:

John 14:Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. 4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.​

There is a whole spiritual realm you & others are denying. Jesus is with us constantly, & all the powers or earth & hell are subject to him. Because he is longsuffering, & has a redeemed people to save he allows wickedness to continue. We are his witnesses - ambassadors - on earth.

Jesus is not yet reigning though as the King, correct?

 

[Yeshua1]

You are confusing spiritual interpretation with Preterism. It is possible to believe in the first without accepting the second. I think you should be honest and rename this thread 'Preterism' because it seems to have precious little to do with spiritual interpretation.

Because the Bible insists upon the physical. Acts 1:11 and Revelation 1:7 do not refute spiritual interpretation but they do refute preterism. Did the believing Jews see Jesus in AD 70? I think you'll find they didn't.

On the Last day, when believers are united to their resurrection bodies, they will rise to meet the Lord in the air and so be with Him forever (1 Thessalonians 4:16-18).

Of course we can believe Him, but if we mistakenly believe that the context of Luke 21:27 is AD 70, we shall be misunderstanding Him.

The Second Coming of Christ will be an earth shattering Event,a s All will know that it happened, and there shall be the glorious resurrection of the Body to him, and NOTHING like that happened AD 70....

 

[Yeshua1]

If you actually read my posts, without blinders on, you would see that I believe in a future coming of Jesus for resurrection & judgment, when he will establish the New Heaven & New Earth.

Jesus in his Olivet prophecy taught that he would come for the destruction of Jerusalem & the temple in the lifetime of the generation that so bitterly opposed & rejected him. The must be a sense in which he came or was present in the clouds at that time, or his prophecy failed & the scoffers were vindicated.

Daniel saw Jesus come in the clouds - when he ascended in victory.

Dan. 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. 14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.​

Mark 14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.​

He is presently reigning as King of kings & Lord of lords, & he is present with his people:

Mat. 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.​

We are not struggling without him at present - he is with us constantly. As he said:

John 14:Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. 4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.​

There is a whole spiritual realm you & others are denying. Jesus is with us constantly, & all the powers or earth & hell are subject to him. Because he is longsuffering, & has a redeemed people to save he allows wickedness to continue. We are his witnesses - ambassadors - on earth.

So you would be a partial pretierist than?

 

[Yeshua1]

You make unfounded claims constantly.
No one cares if you are on the right side of the issue or the wrong side of the issue because you do not establish it scripturally..
If Kyred or Covenanter writes a sentence or two that will be after they posted a dozen verses or so.
I would have to do a whole thread on your misguided ideas....
Do not speak about anyone " spiritualizing anything when you were silent on the verses dealing with the sun, moon, and and stars.
I Could start a thread on your responses...or rather your lack of real responses, but you would not like it.
These men have offered you verse after verse which you do not respond to.

Think that of you kook back on those, would see that did say that the scriptures at tie do usepoetic/figuarive language, but that it also can point towards a literal and real truth...

 

[Iconoclast]

Think that of you kook back on those, would see that did say that the scriptures at tie do usepoetic/figuarive language, but that it also can point towards a literal and real truth...

Okay...but lets build on that.
When you speak of postmill or amill believers "spiritualizing" you are not meaning that as a compliment, but rather you seek to dismiss their concerns.
Notice all post/amill posters have offered scripture to make their case for spiritual interpretation....this is where you fail big time.
You have every right to be critical and that can be quite healthy...but I can speak for the others here that we do not se you answer line by line to our responses.....
Quote the whole response, then show why you believe we error in offering what we do.
Others have made a slight attempt but failed also in that what was offered was very weak, or off topic...
So.....go for it....we do not need one line tweets which do not interact with the texts offered

Another thing....we all know that everything will be perfect in heaven...so no need to offer this as if it is a new idea to the discussion, every view holds it...All believe the bible is the word of God, all believ

 

[Yeshua1]

Okay...but lets build on that.
When you speak of postmill or amill believers "spiritualizing" you are not meaning that as a compliment, but rather you seek to dismiss their concerns.
Notice all post/amill posters have offered scripture to make their case for spiritual interpretation....this is where you fail big time.
You have every right to be critical and that can be quite healthy...but I can speak for the others here that we do not se you answer line by line to our responses.....
Quote the whole response, then show why you believe we error in offering what we do.
Others have made a slight attempt but failed also in that what was offered was very weak, or off topic...
So.....go for it....we do not need one line tweets which do not interact with the texts offered

Another thing....we all know that everything will be perfect in heaven...so no need to offer this as if it is a new idea to the discussion, every view holds it...All believe the bible is the word of God, all believ

Would see both Post/A mils though as being different than Pretierists, as their spiritualizing of prophecy can get them into heresy when taken to full on version!

 

[Covenanter]

So you would be a partial pretierist than?

Look at my avatar - I am wholly prettier.

 

[Covenanter]

The fundamental objection to spiritual interpretation/understanding of prophecy is the assumed doctrine of the second of Christ. Must be personal, visible to all and physical and glorious.

The unbelieving Jews saw Jesus, but did not see him, heard him but did not hear him. E.g. Isaiah 6, John 8, John 12, Acts 28,

Why insist on the physical? In what way was/will be John 14:3 fulfilled?

When Jesus spoke of coming in Luke 21:27 the context relates to the destruction. Can we believe him?

You are confusing spiritual interpretation with Preterism. It is possible to believe in the first without accepting the second. I think you should be honest and rename this thread 'Preterism' because it seems to have precious little to do with spiritual interpretation.

Because the Bible insists upon the physical. Acts 1:11 and Revelation 1:7 do not refute spiritual interpretation but they do refute preterism. Did the believing Jews see Jesus in AD 70? I think you'll find they didn't.

On the Last day, when believers are united to their resurrection bodies, they will rise to meet the Lord in the air and so be with Him forever (1 Thessalonians 4:16-18).

Of course we can believe Him, but if we mistakenly believe that the context of Luke 21:27 is AD 70, we shall be misunderstanding Him.

You are forgetting this is thread #8. The basic line we are answering is that the OT prophecies are literal, so that Jesus is prophesied to be a king who comes in person to sit on David's throne in earthly Jerusalem as king of the Jews; ruling the world from Jerusalem; engaging in physical warfare against physical enemies. They see the Gospel age as an emergency plan, saving the Gentiles because the Jews did not accept their Messiah.

They take the Olivet prophecy as requiring a new temple in Jerusalem so the Ezek. 40-48 can be fulfilled, complete with renewed animal sacrifices & a divided up land. Presumably a temple built during the tribulation so it can be destroyed & another in the millennium.

Amils, Postmils & Preterists all reject the futurist trib/millennial literal interpretation. The Old covenant prophecies do have a real interpretation that we see as the Gospel age, centred on Christ & his present spiritual kingdom, and saving all the redeemed, Jew & Gentile, as one body, one church, one spiritual temple. We enter heaven at death, welcomed by Jesus as Stephen was, & enjoy a bodily resurrection when Jesus returns for resurrection & judgment.

You ask "Did the believing Jews see Jesus in AD 70?" Surely you can see that "see" is used in the sense of perceiving or understanding in the texts I referred to in the OP?

Likewise the unbelieving Jews saw him as his prophecies came true.

Mat. 24:30 ‘and then shall appear the sign of the Son of Man in the heaven; and then shall all the tribes of the earth smite the breast, and they shall see the Son of Man coming upon the clouds of the heaven, with power and much glory;

Rev. 1:7 Lo, he doth come with the clouds, and see him shall every eye, even those who did pierce him, and wail because of him shall all the tribes of the land. Yes! Amen!​

I've used Young's Literal Translation - the Greek is the same for all the tribes of the land/earth.
In Revelation John makes it clear that those who did pierce him are those who will see his coming. This generation.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

You are forgetting this is thread #8. The basic line we are answering is that the OT prophecies are literal, so that Jesus is prophesied to be a king who comes in person to sit on David's throne in earthly Jerusalem as king of the Jews; ruling the world from Jerusalem; engaging in physical warfare against physical enemies. They see the Gospel age as an emergency plan, saving the Gentiles because the Jews did not accept their Messiah.

They take the Olivet prophecy as requiring a new temple in Jerusalem so the Ezek. 40-48 can be fulfilled, complete with renewed animal sacrifices & a divided up land. Presumably a temple built during the tribulation so it can be destroyed & another in the millennium.

Amils, Postmils & Preterists all reject the futurist trib/millennial literal interpretation. The Old covenant prophecies do have a real interpretation that we see as the Gospel age, centred on Christ & his present spiritual kingdom, and saving all the redeemed, Jew & Gentile, as one body, one church, one spiritual temple. We enter heaven at death, welcomed by Jesus as Stephen was, & enjoy a bodily resurrection when Jesus returns for resurrection & judgment.

Well OK, but it seems to me that you are just exchanging one error for another. Also, there is a whole lot more to spiritual interpretation than Preterism, but I can see that I shall have to start my own thread.

You ask "Did the believing Jews see Jesus in AD 70?" Surely you can see that "see" is used in the sense of perceiving or understanding in the texts I referred to in the OP?

I see no indication that believing Jews saw the Lord Jesus in AD 70 in any sense of the word.

Likewise the unbelieving Jews saw him as his prophecies came true.

Mat. 24:30 ‘and then shall appear the sign of the Son of Man in the heaven; and then shall all the tribes of the earth smite the breast, and they shall see the Son of Man coming upon the clouds of the heaven, with power and much glory;

Rev. 1:7 Lo, he doth come with the clouds, and see him shall every eye, even those who did pierce him, and wail because of him shall all the tribes of the land. Yes! Amen!​

I've used Young's Literal Translation - the Greek is the same for all the tribes of the land/earth.
In Revelation John makes it clear that those who did pierce him are those who will see his coming. This generation.

Did all the tribes of the earth 'smite the breast' in AD 70? Not that I'm aware. To most people in the Roman world, the goings-on the previous year would have been far more important.

Matthew 24:30 does not apply to AD 70. any more than Revelation 1:7 does. Look, I've done this before, but maybe not since you've been here. Acts 1:11 is the controlling text because it is so clear:
"Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven."
"This same Jesus......" The Jesus who left had a body of 'flesh and bones' (Luke 24:39). The Jesus who returns will have the same body.
'who was taken up from you....' He was taken up from the earth; He will return to the earth. He was taken up physically; He will return physically. He was taken up visibly ('as you saw Him go'); He will return visibly.
There is more. A cloud took Him from the sight (v.9); clouds will part to reveal Him. As the disciples looked up to see Him depart, so men will look up and see Him return. It's all there in the text. The only difference will be that His return will be glorious, and every eye will see Him (Matthew 24:30; Revelation 1:7).

This is what the early Christians were longing for. They weren't longing for the destruction of Jerusalem; the persecution from the Jews had ceased long before AD 70. The Thessalonians weren't being persecuted by Jews, but by 'their own countrymen' (1 Thessalonians 2:14; cf. Acts 19:21ff). Some of the first churches were in towns that didn't have sufficient Jews to form a synagogue (eg. Lystra, Philippi) let alone mount persecution for any length of time.

 

[Covenanter]

Well OK, but it seems to me that you are just exchanging one error for another. Also, there is a whole lot more to spiritual interpretation than Preterism, but I can see that I shall have to start my own thread.

I see in its simplest form that literal interpretation of the OT prophecy is concerned with national Israel & the Jews - yet future, with the dispensationalist fables distorting the interpretation of New Covenant Scripture.

Spiritual interpretation of prophecy focuses on Christ, & the New Covenant Church. The promises to Israel are realised on an individual basis when sinners repent & believe in Jesus. Acts records many thousands of Jews believing. The New Heaven & New Earth represent the ultimate promised land.

I see no indication that believing Jews saw the Lord Jesus in AD 70 in any sense of the word.

Did all the tribes of the earth 'smite the breast' in AD 70? Not that I'm aware. To most people in the Roman world, the goings-on the previous year would have been far more important.

Matthew 24:30 does not apply to AD 70. any more than Revelation 1:7 does.

Tribes of the land.​

Jesus' prophecy was concerned with the destruction, & he declared:

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.​

That was stated AFTER he prophesied:

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the [earth] land mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.​

Was Jesus mistaken? Surely NOT! But when the Jews defending Jerusalem saw the destruction occurring as Jesus had prophesied, in the time-scale prophesied, they would have seen/understood that the days of vengeance were the fulfilment of Jesus' words in prophecy & parable. In effect they saw Jesus fulfilling his prophecy & mourned in terror.

We do not have an inspired report of that destruction, but Jesus in Revelation gives more explicit details - which clearly relate to the destruction & Jesus' warnings. Especially Rev. 11.

Look, I've done this before, but maybe not since you've been here. Acts 1:11 is the controlling text because it is so clear:
"Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven."
"This same Jesus......" The Jesus who left had a body of 'flesh and bones' (Luke 24:39). The Jesus who returns will have the same body.
'who was taken up from you....' He was taken up from the earth; He will return to the earth. He was taken up physically; He will return physically. He was taken up visibly ('as you saw Him go'); He will return visibly.
There is more. A cloud took Him from the sight (v.9); clouds will part to reveal Him. As the disciples looked up to see Him depart, so men will look up and see Him return. It's all there in the text. The only difference will be that His return will be glorious, and every eye will see Him (Matthew 24:30; Revelation 1:7).

Does that refer to his coming for general resurrection & judgment, or AD 70? Does it refute the separately prophesied AD 70 coming? No.

This is what the early Christians were longing for. They weren't longing for the destruction of Jerusalem; the persecution from the Jews had ceased long before AD 70. The Thessalonians weren't being persecuted by Jews, but by 'their own countrymen' (1 Thessalonians 2:14; cf. Acts 19:21ff). Some of the first churches were in towns that didn't have sufficient Jews to form a synagogue (eg. Lystra, Philippi) let alone mount persecution for any length of time.

Stephen saw him in glory. Saul saw him at his conversion. All believers will see him at death - the Lamb will be our Shepherd in glory.

Jewish persecution in Israel continued - as Paul experienced. AFAIK there is no record of it ceasing before the destruction. The situation of the churches around the Roman Empire is not relevant. Only Jerusalem & Judea.

Why should they want destruction of the city & people? As Paul explains in Romans, they were longing for salvation of the Jews, & expressed concern for the city. But warning of the coming judgment.

Even in heaven they are shown as expecting divine vengeance:

Rev. 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 and they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.​

You refer to 1 Thes. 2:14. Have you read the context?

14 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judæa are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews: 15 who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men: 16 forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.​

The wrath against the generation of Jews who rejected their Messiah was coming on them. There is no prophecy of further wrath against them down the ages. From then on, the Jews are simple a people group needing the Gospel.

 

[Covenanter]

Sorry about duplicates - the system was malfunctioning.

 

[Covenanter]

Sorry about duplicates - the system is malfunctioning.

 

[Yeshua1]

Look at my avatar - I am wholly prettier.

If that is true, then you would deny that there is a future second coming!
Also, would deny their would be any physical/bodily resurrection of the saints!

 

[Iconoclast]

Jesus is not yet reigning though as the King, correct?

Why would you deny Jesus is reigning as King?
What is He doing instead?
Do you believe col1:13?
If you were translated into such a Kingdom.....who or where is the King?

 

[Yeshua1]

Why would you deny Jesus is reigning as King?
What is He doing instead?
Do you believe col1:13?
If you were translated into such a Kingdom.....who or where is the King?

IF Jesus was dully ruling as King right now, would there be still be ISIS, false religions, and evil and suffering in the world?
His Messianic reign would have NONE of that!

 

[Iconoclast]

IF Jesus was dully ruling as King right now, would there be still be ISIS, false religions, and evil and suffering in the world?
His Messianic reign would have NONE of that!

could you explain verse 2 to me?

110 The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

2 The Lord shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.

How does He rule in the midst of his enemies, if the messianic reign has none of it as you suggest?

 

[Yeshua1]

could you explain verse 2 to me?

110 The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

2 The Lord shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.

How does He rule in the midst of his enemies, if the messianic reign has none of it as you suggest?

That will happen after His second coming!

 

[Aaron]

The fundamental objection to spiritual interpretation/understanding of prophecy is the assumed doctrine of the second of Christ. Must be personal, visible to all and physical and glorious.

The unbelieving Jews saw Jesus, but did not see him, heard him but did not hear him. E.g. Isaiah 6, John 8, John 12, Acts 28,

Why insist on the physical? In what way was/will be John 14:3 fulfilled?

When Jesus spoke of coming in Luke 21:27 the context relates to the destruction. Can we believe him?

Are you saying the Second Advent has occurred?

 

[Covenanter]

Are you saying the Second Advent has occurred?

No. I am saying that as Jesus prophesied "coming in the clouds" (Mat. 24:30 & Mark & Luke) to occur in the lifetime of this generation he cannot be referring to the second advent, but to the AD 70 judgement of the generation that rejected him.

How then should we understand/see coming with the clouds? I believe the Jews saw/understood too late as his prophetic warning occurred as prophesied.. Clouds of judgement rather than breaking through the clouds. See e.g. Jeremiah 4:13

Behold, he shall come up as clouds, and his chariots shall be as a whirlwind: his horses are swifter than eagles. Woe unto us! for we are spoiled.​