Regeneration apart from Christ

[tyndale1946]

I can't speak for Kyredneck, but it is the theology of most Old Line Primitive Baptists that eternal salvation and gospel salvation are distinct, and the first can be true without the second ever happening in time (called "conditional time salvation"). That said, I don't think they would say that this eternal salvation in any way occurs "apart from Christ".

I can definitely agree with that being in the past an Old Line Primitive Baptists over 40 years... I believe Kyredneck would agree with me that we see our Eternal Salvation as a work of Jesus Christ alone and dead alien sinner is passive in the work. Whereas time (called "conditional time salvation") is dependent on our daily walk with Christ... You walk with Christ and receive a blessing, and if you don't walk with Christ you don't... We don't walk with Christ to get saved (in an Eternal sense) we walk with Christ because we are saved... Not all Primitive Baptist believe in conditional time salvation... Brother Glen

 

[Yeshua1]

I can definitely agree with that being in the past an Old Line Primitive Baptists over 40 years... I believe Kyredneck would agree with me that we see our Eternal Salvation as a work of Jesus Christ alone and dead alien sinner is passive in the work. Whereas time (called "conditional time salvation") is dependent on our daily walk with Christ... You walk with Christ and receive a blessing, and if you don't walk with Christ you don't... We don't walk with Christ to get saved (in an Eternal sense) we walk with Christ because we are saved... Not all Primitive Baptist believe in conditional time salvation... Brother Glen

Think that the bible though teaches that all of the elect will receive Jesus while still living!

 

[tyndale1946]

Think that the bible though teaches that all of the elect will receive Jesus while still living!

I know of no doctrine that teaches that God elects someone after their mortally dead... That being said they were elected in Christ Jesus before the foundation of the world before they were born... That's doctrine!... God the Father chose us, (election)... God the Son Jesus Christ (saved us)... And the Holy Spirit reveals to us what the three and one Godhead accomplished for our Eternal Salvation... Brother Glen

Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

 

[percho]

I know of no doctrine that teaches that God elects someone after their mortally dead... That being said they were elected in Christ Jesus before the foundation of the world before they were born... That's doctrine!... God the Father chose us, (election)... God the Son Jesus Christ (saved us)... And the Holy Spirit reveals to us what the three and one Godhead accomplished for our Eternal Salvation... Brother Glen

Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Were you dead in Adam before your were born, however also elected to live in Christ, before you were born?

 

[Yeshua1]

I know of no doctrine that teaches that God elects someone after their mortally dead... That being said they were elected in Christ Jesus before the foundation of the world before they were born... That's doctrine!... God the Father chose us, (election)... God the Son Jesus Christ (saved us)... And the Holy Spirit reveals to us what the three and one Godhead accomplished for our Eternal Salvation... Brother Glen

Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

But until we receive Jesus, and receive the Holy Spirit , we are now in Christ and are still lost!

 

[tyndale1946]

Were you dead in Adam before your were born, however also elected to live in Christ, before you were born?

Good point!... But the ALL die in Adam is conditional upon the sin of Adam... ego the Adamic race of mankind unless Christ comes again shall taste death... The ALL made alive in Christ is also conditional but the condition is they were given in Christ before the foundation of the world (election)... Not ALL are elected or we would ALL go to Heaven... Now I know that when someone mentions the doctrine of election on here some brethren come all undone... Well that's ok!... I won't lose any sleep over it...Brother Glen

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

 

[tyndale1946]

But until we receive Jesus, and receive the Holy Spirit , we are now in Christ and are still lost!

How can you be IN CHRIST and still be lost?... Must have been that mortally dead dude that missed out on election because he died before it got to him... Brother Glen

 

[Yeshua1]

How can you be IN CHRIST and still be lost?... Must have been that mortally dead dude that missed out on election because he died before it got to him... Brother Glen

How can you be IN CHRIST and still be lost?... Must have been that mortally dead dude that missed out on election because he died before it got to him... Brother Glen

We are placed into Christ moment receive Him by faith!

 

[kyredneck]

a charge that "Calvinists teach regeneration apart from Christ"

So I ask the Arminians here - is this how you characterize the teaching that regeneration precedes faith?

Not an Arminian, but, I'm convinced that biblically, 'regeneration' is misapplied by both Arminian and Calvinist to mean the 'heavenly birth', or, 'born from above' [Galatians 4:26] (as can drawn from that context, Isaac was 'born from above', a child of promise, so, the 'heavenly birth' is not a new thing, it's been around for a long time [John 3:8]). Christianity, the New Covenant, IS 'the regeneration' [Matthew 19:28], the kingdom of God/heaven/Christ [2 Peter 1:11], the 'building again' of the house of David [Acts 15:14-18], the Church that Christ built [Matthew 16:18], and to even see 'the regeneration' one must first be 'born from above':

3 Jesus answered and said to him, `Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born from above, he is not able to see the reign of God;` Jn 3 YLT

...and to actually enter in to 'the regeneration':

5 Jesus answered, `Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born of water, and the Spirit, he is not able to enter into the reign of God; Jn 3 YLT

I've mulled over and waffled over the years what 'born of water' means and have basically settled that it jibes with:

24 For I will take you from among the nations, and gather you out of all the countries, and will bring you into your own land.
25 And I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you; and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep mine ordinances, and do them.
28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.
29 And I will save you from all your uncleannesses: and I will call for the grain, and will multiply it, and lay no famine upon you. Ezekiel 36

5 not by works done in righteousness, which we did ourselves, but according to his mercy he saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, Titus 3

IOW, I believe in order to be 'regenerated', to enter into the regeneration, one must first and foremost be 'born from above', and then save themselves from their former vain manner of life through obedience to the gospel of Jesus Christ.

 

[kyredneck]

If I'm not mistaken, KyRedneck makes a distinction between eternal salvation and gospel salvation, and that the first can happen without the second.

Yes. With the first man is totally passive. With the second, obedience to the gospel, he is responsible.

 

[kyredneck]

The new birth

Where in the scriptures do we find this term, 'new birth'.

 

[kyredneck]

How can you be IN CHRIST and still be lost?

Folks glibly, unquestionably use 'saved' to mean heaven bound and 'lost' to mean hell bound when scripturally you cannot separate 'lost' from 'lost sheep'. Scripturally, they're sheep, not goats. Lost sheep, out of place, and when they're brought home to the Church where they belong they become 'saved sheep'.

 

[kyredneck]

Regeneration apart from Christ

Not possible, but you already know this. Christ is the life giving spirit.

(When in Sobviivia, do as the Slobs; I'll conform with the popular use of 'regeneration') What the REAL issue is 'Regeneration apart from THE GOSPEL'. Reference:

10 but hath now been manifested by the appearing of our Saviour Christ Jesus, who abolished death, and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, 2 Timothy 1

The gospel does not impart life and immortality, IT TELLS OF IT. Probably 99.999999% of Christianity today hold to gospel or 'means regeneration' and the Primitive Baptists nearly stand alone today holding to 'immediate regeneration', apart from the gospel.

 

[percho]

Not possible, but you already know this. Christ is the life giving spirit.

(When in Sobviivia, do as the Slobs; I'll conform with the popular use of 'regeneration') What the REAL issue is 'Regeneration apart from THE GOSPEL'. Reference:

10 but hath now been manifested by the appearing of our Saviour Christ Jesus, who abolished death, and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, 2 Timothy 1

The gospel does not impart life and immortality, IT TELLS OF IT. Probably 99.999999% of Christianity today hold to gospel or 'means regeneration' and the Primitive Baptists nearly stand alone today holding to 'immediate regeneration', apart from the gospel.

I highly agree. The key words being, "to light".

And IMHO, life and incorruptibility is, "the regeneration," of Matt 19:28. The gospel only brings it to light, it is not the reality thereof.

Of course where we differ is I believe through the gospel we have been indwelt with the Spirit of regeneration, of adoption. Put in the body of Christ, the church, Jerusalem above the mother of us all. Therefore Romans 8:11 which brings about Romans 8:19

But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

Born from Above.

 

[MennoSota]

Not an Arminian, but, I'm convinced that biblically, 'regeneration' is misapplied by both Arminian and Calvinist to mean the 'heavenly birth', or, 'born from above' [Galatians 4:26] (as can drawn from that context, Isaac was 'born from above', a child of promise, so, the 'heavenly birth' is not a new thing, it's been around for a long time [John 3:8]). Christianity, the New Covenant, IS 'the regeneration' [Matthew 19:28], the kingdom of God/heaven/Christ [2 Peter 1:11], the 'building again' of the house of David [Acts 15:14-18], the Church that Christ built [Matthew 16:18], and to even see 'the regeneration' one must first be 'born from above':

3 Jesus answered and said to him, `Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born from above, he is not able to see the reign of God;` Jn 3 YLT

...and to actually enter in to 'the regeneration':

5 Jesus answered, `Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born of water, and the Spirit, he is not able to enter into the reign of God; Jn 3 YLT

I've mulled over and waffled over the years what 'born of water' means and have basically settled that it jibes with:

24 For I will take you from among the nations, and gather you out of all the countries, and will bring you into your own land.
25 And I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you; and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep mine ordinances, and do them.
28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.
29 And I will save you from all your uncleannesses: and I will call for the grain, and will multiply it, and lay no famine upon you. Ezekiel 36

5 not by works done in righteousness, which we did ourselves, but according to his mercy he saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, Titus 3

IOW, I believe in order to be 'regenerated', to enter into the regeneration, one must first and foremost be 'born from above', and then save themselves from their former vain manner of life through obedience to the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Initial work of God, but the human is responsible to maintain salvation by obedience.

Your version sounds like a variation of Jason's heretical Hebrew Roots cult.

Why do people demand that their position with God be determined by their own merit?

 

[Yeshua1]

Folks glibly, unquestionably use 'saved' to mean heaven bound and 'lost' to mean hell bound when scripturally you cannot separate 'lost' from 'lost sheep'. Scripturally, they're sheep, not goats. Lost sheep, out of place, and when they're brought home to the Church where they belong they become 'saved sheep'.

ALL of us were sinners and part of the family of Satan until were saved!

 

[Yeshua1]

Where in the scriptures do we find this term, 'new birth'.

Born from above, as ONLY those are the redeemed!