Featured The Atonement: Which is The Bible's Teaching?

Penal Substitutionary Atonement.
It goes back long before the Reformation and even Anselm and is the only way IMO to understand the Levitical sacrifices and Isaiah 53 and explain why God can be just and the justifier of the one who believes in Jesus (Romans 3:26).

Other schemes like Christus Victor or Moral Influence are not wrong, but they fail in the absence of PSA.

 

The primary and best view would be the penal substitionary aspect one!

 

Yet another Atonement thread?

What did Christ's death on the cross accomplish? He became the propitiation or means of salvation for all mankind. He ransomed mankind as our sin offering, such that everyone God puts into His propitiatory shelter is washed with His blood, justified, made perfect (without flaw) blameless and holy. But note this reconciliation did not occur when Christ died, but does occur when God puts us in Christ (sets us apart in Christ based on crediting our faith in Christ as righteousness.)

 

Which is it then? Is Christ our propitiation or our means of salvation? And why do we need to be propitiated?

 

Jesus death was intended to save just the elect of God, as he purchased a definite salvation!

 

Our brother calls us as having bad biblical teachings!

 

I see the usual suspects have again posted disparagement of the poster, rather than address the post.
Martin has said Jesus is not the means of salvation. That of course is bogus.
Y1 posts that Jesus did not lay down His life as a ransom for all, or that God does not desire all men to be saved. That of course is bogus.

Next Martin posts that he cannot grasp that propitiation and means of salvation are synonymous. Trust me, when God puts us inside Christ's propitiatory shelter, we are saved from God's wrath. Folks, just read your bibles, 1 Jolhn 2:2, 1 Timothy 2:4-6

 

1. The Lord Jesus is not the means of salvation. He is the Saviour.
2. Van thinks that people have to be propitiated. God has to be propitiated.
3. God set Christ forth as a propitiation. God's wrath towards His people is assuaged by the death of Christ (Romans 3:25-26).
4. If God desires all men to be saved, all men will be saved (Psalm 115:3). But 'all' in 2 Tim. 2:4 does not mean every single person but men and women, rich and poor, Jew and Gentile, slave and free

I am off on my holiday now. My strong advice is not to let Van wreck this thread as he has wrecked so many others.

 

Pay no attention to those who bash posters and misrepresent opponents positions.
Jesus is the means of salvation. His propitiation provides the means of salvation. He is the propitiation for the whole world.
Did I say we are propitiated, or that when God puts us in Christ's propitiatory shelter, we are saved from God's wrath.

Salvation is presented in scripture by three words, Propitiation - the means of salvation, Redemption - the act of salvation, and Reconciliation - the result of salvation. Such a simple concept, no need to explore the unstudied inventions of men.

The only thing wrecked is the fake theology of unbiblical assertions.

What did Christ's death on the cross accomplish? He became the propitiation or means of salvation for all mankind. He ransomed mankind as our sin offering, such that everyone God puts into His propitiatory shelter is washed with His blood, justified, made perfect (without flaw) blameless and holy. But note this reconciliation did not occur when Christ died, but does occur when God puts us in Christ (sets us apart in Christ based on crediting our faith in Christ as righteousness.)

 

Christ died for all mankind, those saved and to be saved, and those lost and to be lost. All mankind was purchased with His blood, we were bought. God accepted His subsitutionary sacrifice for the sin of the world. Everyone God places in Christ is therefore redeemed, the price having been paid in full. No one not placed in Christ is redeemed, they are still dead in their trespasses. When we are transferred into Christ, God's wrath toward us is propitiated, we are forgiven, made blameless, holy and perfect. In Christ we are saved, which includes being justified, being made righteous, and given the right to become children of God, the redemption of our bodies at Christ's second coming. Our indwelt Spirit is God's pledge for our future adoption in our glorified body.

As the song says, Jesus saves, Jesus saves.

 

Atonement Questions

Is the atonement substitutionary? This question assumes a common understanding of the term “atonement.” In English, the word simply means “a making at one” and theologically refers to the process of bringing someone estranged from God into unity with God. Using this understanding of the term, then Christ’s death on the cross did not bring anyone into unity with God, but instead enabled God to bring those of His choosing into unity with Himself. When God spiritually places someone “in Christ” they are united with Christ, and they are justified, made holy and blameless in Christ. Thus if we use the term correctly, then atonement refers to God placing us spiritually in Christ.

Did Jesus take the penalty of sin for every person who has ever lived, is living, and ever will live? No, Jesus took away the penalty of sin for anyone spiritually placed “in Him.” We are not made holy or blameless until we are “in Christ.”

If so, what was God's intention in laying the sin of every person on Christ? Since Jesus did not take the penalty of sin for every person who ever lived, the question is moot. God’s intention in accepting the sacrifice of Jesus as the propitiation for the whole world was to reconcile mankind to Himself through Jesus Christ. Thus anyone spiritually placed “in Christ” receives the reconciliation provided by the propitiation of Christ’s sacrifice.

Was it His purpose to make men savable, or to actually atone for their sins? God’s purpose was to provide the opportunity for reconciliation to all mankind and to reconcile those who God places in Christ based on crediting their faith as righteousness.

And if those sins have been borne by Christ and the punishment due them laid upon Him, upon what basis will those same sins be punished in those who reject Him? Again, the question rests on a false premise, and thus presents a false dichotomy. God accepted Christ’s sacrifice as the propitiation for the whole world. One facet of this truth is explained in Hebrews 9:15. Christ’s death was for the redemption of the transgressions committed under the Old Covenant, and therefore those who have been called under the Old Covenant may receive the promise of eternal life under the New Covenant in the blood of Christ. Since the New Covenant was inaugurated at the death of Christ on the cross, the Old Testament saints were not made perfect until they were covered by Christ’s propitiation, and therefore allowed to enter heaven – see Hebrews 11:39-40.

Did Jesus, as the faithful High Priest, sacrifice for those who will never be saved? Yes, see Hebrews 9:11-12. Christ entered the spiritual tabernacle, the kingdom of God, after He died, arose and ascended, where He intercedes on behalf of those who have been spiritually placed “in Him.” But He entered the tabernacle as High Priest “once for all” such that anyone placed in Christ has Christ as his or her High Priest, because His sacrifice of Himself obtained eternal redemption for anyone who is spiritually placed in Christ. So in the sense of sacrificing, He acted as High Priest for everyone, but in the sense of interceding, He acts for those who are “in Christ,” for those who have received the reconciliation provided by His sacrifice.

What is the nature of this failed intercession? Christ’s sacrifice on behalf of all mankind did not fail, and His intercession on behalf of those placed in Him does not fail, He is God Almighty.

And is it true that Reformed theologians misconstrue the scope and intention of Christ’s atonement? Yes, they combine Christ’s obtainment of “eternal redemption” once for all on the cross, with receiving that reconciliation, putting the cart before the horse and denying that Christ died as a ransom for all mankind.

 

Related to this topic in the news, the Southern Baptist Convention just passed a resolution favoring substitutionary atonement.
On The Necessity Of Penal Substitutionary Atonement

Jim Somerville of FBC Richmond, VA (CBF & SBC) has filed this protest against it:
Enough ‘Virgin in the Volcano’ theology

 

The accuracy of these descriptions, and of one in one of your following posts is dubious.

One only need study the Atonement as prefigured in the law. Christ is the tabernacle, the priest, the altar and the offering. The Work is done.

 

Penal Substitution is a mockery against God to say he doesn't forgive anything.


Lets say you OWE ME 1000$ and my son decides to pay 1000$ FOR YOU. I never FORGAVE YOU, you simply paid up.

Paid up for the privileged to sin.


Penal Substitution mocks God as a angry chimp frustrated with anger requiring suffering of others.

God gets so angry he abuses his child Jesus.

Under Penal the LIFE of Christ was so WORTHLESS and WITHOUT MERIT, Without pleasure to God, that God still had to get his SADIST PLEASURE in TORTURING JESUS to finally feel better.


The Truth is Christ's sacrifice to God, his life and greatest act of love. Satisfied God. Jesus was glorified.

13“Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends.

If Jesus were to take the "wrath you deserve" Then he has to be in HELL--> ETERNALLY.

 

As usual you either fail to understand even the basics of the Christian faith or, more likely, you are completely and deliberately misrepresenting them to make your pathetic point. Your analogy falls to the ground at once because you and the son have found a way to establish justice, that people should pay back what they owe, and yet spared the debter the bankruptcy that he deserves but because of your actions, and those of your son, will not now face. In Christ,
'Mercy and truth have met together; righteousness and peace have kissed' (Psalm 85:10).

What would we say of a human judge who ,faced with a criminal found guilty of the most heinous crimes, said, "Well, he deserves the death penalty, but I love him so much I'll just let him off, and while I'm at it, I'll just torture my own son for no reason whatsoever"?

'God set [Christ] forth as a propitiation by His blood through faith, to demonstrate [what? His love? No!] His righteousness............To demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who believes in Jesus' (Romans 3:25-26). The cross sets forth God's justice and righteousness, because He doesn't abandon justice, but nor does He abandon love.

On the contrary, God says, "This is My beloved Son in whom I am well pleased" (Matthew 3:17), and the Lord Jesus says, "Therefore My Father loves Me because I lay down My life that I may take it up again" (John 10:17). Christ's life was immeasurably precious, yet, 'Being in the form of God, He did not regard equality with God as being something to be held onto, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant......etc. (Philippians 2:6-11). So whilst it is true that the Father gave the Son (John 3:16), it is equally true that the Son gave Himself (John 10:18). If you look at the cross and see the Father inflicting on the Son a punishment He was unwilling to undergo, or if you see the Son extracting from the Father a mercy to sinners that He was unwilling to give, you understand nothing about the cross.

Why? What for? You have made out the Lord Jesus to be some sort of psychopath who says, "I love you so much I'm going to jump off the Golden Gate Bridge for you!" To which one might reply, "That's impressive; but why would it show how much you love me?" But if you were struggling in the waters of san Francisco Bay without any hope of rescue, and someone was to dive in to save you at the cost of His own life, and if that person was someone you hated, then you might say,
'Love so amazing, so divine
Demands my soul, my life, my all.'

Greater love has no human than this; but Christ's love is much greater, for He laid down His life for His enemies to make them His friends! "Father, forgive them! They don't know what they are doing," as the nails are hammered into His hands and feet. 'For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of His Son, how much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life' (Romans 5:10) as He ever lives to intercede for us.

If the Lord Jesus were an ordinary man-- and a sinner-- then certainly He would need to be in HELL -> ETERNALLY. But because He is the sinless eternal Son of God, He doesn't. 'Now from the sixth hour until the ninth hour there was darkness over all the land' (Matthew 27:45) It was during this time that Jesus bore all the sins of the people God had given Him to save. After that, the sun came out once more and He could say, "It is finished!" The price was paid, propitiation had been wrought, righteousness had been vindicated.
'There was none other good enough
To pay the price of sin.
He only could unlock the gate
Of heaven and let us in.'

 

Lol. You neither know the Scriptures nor the power of God. Without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sin.

Substitutes were provided for the penitent Israelite in the sin and trespass offerings. In one, the victim died for the sin of the worshipper, in the other the victim died because of damage the worshipper's sin caused to others, and restitution was made.

And the worshipper himself couldn't come to God. Oh no, he had to come to a mediator, the priest, to make the offerings for him.

And then the sin was forgiven, and the worshipper was made clean.

All these were done to teach us of Christ and His work on the Cross.

 

As usual you lack common sense. Forgiveness is you don't collect. Getting paid up is not forgiving anyone.

According to your theology God the Father FORGIVES NNE. He has never let off.

Here is scripture how it works:

Matthew 18
23“Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand bags of goldh was brought to him. 25Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt.

26“At this the servant fell on his knees before him. ‘Be patient with me,’ he begged, ‘and I will pay back everything.’ 27The servant’s master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go.

28“But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred silver coins.i He grabbed him and began to choke him. ‘Pay back what you owe me!’ he demanded.

29“His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, ‘Be patient with me, and I will pay it back.’

30“But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt.31When the other servants saw what had happened, they were outraged and went and told their master everything that had happened.

32“Then the master called the servant in. ‘You wicked servant,’ he said, ‘I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. 33Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?’34In anger his master handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.

35“This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother or sister from your heart.”



See all debts are canceled.

Also this a good example of someone who was forgiven ALL DEBT by God, Forgiven by God, REBORN, Elect, "should be having mercy" And FAILS goes to torturers to pay what is owe....Hell right?



Your version of God does not forgive. He gets paid the sadistic torture of Jesus Christ.

Show me one example of forgiveness. Its not there because even you will say in vocabulary Christ "PAID"..

PAID FOR and getting a receipt and Being forgiven are 2 different things.

Forgiving is dropping the whole thing.

Unless hey do you want me Forgive others the way YOUR idea of God does it?

Don't lie to yourself.

 

I'm not saying the blood of Jesus doesn't forgive. I'm saying you owe him change. I'm saying the bill was 100$ his worth was 100000000000000000$

Rather then the bare minimum to where God has to beat out his "pleasure" abusing Jesus.