The soul that sins must die, and there is no forgive of sins without the shedding of blood, and God poured His wrath upon Jesus,as He was the sin bearer!
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The Atonement: Which is The Bible's Teaching?
- Thread starter AndyMartin
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It was His pleasure to have Jesus crushed for our iniquities and sins!
Lol, That sounds like, 'On a scale of one to ten, My Jesus is an 11." That all sounds wonderful and everything, and sounds like you really, really, really love Jesus, but your premise isn't true, and in that the statement dishonors Christ. More dangerously, it seems you don't realize the debt you owe.
If the law demanded 10, then Jesus yielded 10. The law could accept no less, and Jesus could yield no more. The law demands truth. Jesus is the truth. How could Jesus yield more truth than He is, and yet any less truth than He is would be a transgression of the law, Jesus would have proven corrupt, and He would have died a sinner.
And just how small is the curse of the law, that Jesus suffered more than is due?
*(or possesses)
So you think you're God? I was wondering.
Your ideas make God into the worst kind of crooked judge who abandons justice completely, lets the guilty go free and tortures his innocent son for no reason.
Heigh-ho! I've better things to do with my time than argue with you. back on ignore.
God saving us from blood thirsty God theology is absurd.
Go ahead and show us one bible verse that says the wrath of God was let loose on Jesus Christ.
Show us one bible verse were God the father is hateful towards Jesus or Jesus towards God the Father.
Jesus Christ is the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. We are to follow God as an example of forgiveness, we even pray it, " 12‘And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors."
Are we to know keep our personal wrath prepared to be vented forth on another? To demand our debt be paid if even by someone else?
1 john 4
9This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him.10This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins. 11Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another.
Sure I ought to love others the same way, Ill beat my son whenever anyone does me wrong, NO.
Nothing there about Jesus being substituted for your beat down by God.
We are called to forgive exactly like God does, Do you really want a list of scripture detailing that? Its even the the Lord's Prayer, Forgive as we forgive.
You are simply talking past people with your faulty defintion of forgiveness. It appears you think forgiveness means no consequences. That is in complete error.
This is an emotional characterization based on nothing true.
Do you deny that Jesus died on the cross to pay the wage for our sin?
Your characterization just went from emotional to sophomoric.
The doctrine of Penal Substitution is not a theory it is scriptural and it is fact.
Revmitchell,
Thanks for your patience.
Jesus is not Eternally in Hell, separated from God. Show that he is and you win, he really got the wrath you "deserve".
While your at it explain how the Trinity is not eternal.
Lol. A child could refute your heresies. Just answer one question: Is there remission for sin without the shedding of blood?
Yes or no?
The means of forgiveness is based upon the death (shedding of the blood of Chris) burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
1 Corinthians 15
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
The act of forgiveness is based upon love.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
God forgives us based upon His love we should do the same.
HankD
God provided for us his lamb, to take away our sins by becoming our sin bearer, so God caused our sins to be laid upon Him, to have Him take in full the wrath against sin that we are deserved!
And the Father did not abuse Jesus, as Jesus agreed to it!
Katarina Von Bora
Active Member
Indeed!
The recorded prayer of Jesus to the God the Father on the eve of his crucifixion. John 17.
Yes. But your putting up a straw man that has nothing to do with PENAL SUBSTITUTION.
A child could learn to read.
Hebrews 9
22And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
ALMOST all things are purged with blood. Almost means very very close.....Tiny itsy bitsy WITHOUT.
But here is where your child better activate his reading comprehension skills:
I'm not saying the Blood of Jesus does nothing. I'm saying Jesus Christ wasn't substituted with you to receive eternal damnation and God's wrath.
The closest thing you have to a SUBSTITUTE is a SCAPEGOAT. but they wouldn't kill the scapegoat, they would let him out in the wilderness.
There is a difference between saying blood of Jesus sanctifies you and hold on we are SUBSTITUTING and trading places with Jesus and you so he can receive the wrath of God you deserve.
Hebrews 9
13For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: 14How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Hebrews 10:29
29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
1 John 1
7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
There is a difference between realizing you are in unity with Jesus Christ and lets swap places.
Bible verse. That God let his wrath out on Jesus, Or you are a LIAR.
Wrong. ... without shedding of blood is no remission. Heb 9:22
As far as suffering the penalty for us, this is established in quite incontrovertibly in Galatians 3:13.
Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us.
And since I expect from you a puerile attempt to say the curse wasn't a penalty for transgression, read Galatians 3:10.
Here endeth the lesson.
I see some merit in several. For example, the Ransom Theory (apart from Origen others in the early church held to a more general Ransom Theory - that we were redeemed or ransomed from sin and death) looks at an important aspect of the Atonement. Anselem's Theory laid the foundation for Luther's substitutionary view (add Aquinas) which led to Penal Substitution. All three focus on important truths of the same Atonement. Grotius' position points to the difference Scripture holds between the World and the Kingdom, rightly identifying the crux of this difference within the Atonement itself. And Paul tells us that the same love that Christ had in that he gave himself for us is the love we are to exercise, which is not us but "Christ in us" (there is a supernatural influence exercised over man, through the atonement, to change us into new creatures created in Christ to do good works which God prepared beforehand). And Scripture presents Jesus as the "Last Adam", representing mankind as an atonement...a "Spotless Lamb"...effecting repentance where we could not. The "traditional" position was less a theory and more a motif, and I'd include this general idea of Christus Victor as well, that the Atonement was also a victory over sin and death reconciling God and men.
All of these theories can be problematic if assigned primacy and taken in isolation (or to deny truths examined by other theories). For example, the Ransom Theory becomes problematic when it is taken as a ransom paid by God to Satan (not necessarily the only idea conveyed by that theory); Penal Substitution becomes problematic when the "punishment" shifts from a penalty due mankind to God's wrath against certain people inflicted on Christ; the Governmental Theory presents issues when restricted only to such principalities; the Example theory falls apart separated from the supernatural work of redemption and recreation of men...ect.).
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You didn't read my post I quoted hebrews, BUT you only quote HALF OF IT.
Hebrews 9
22And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
^ALMOST^ Is the key word.
Not everyone can afford a cow, If you were poor for example you are allowed a GRAIN OFFERING.
Malachi 1
11“For from the rising of the sun even to its setting, My name will be great among the nations, and in every place incense is going to be offered to My name, and a grain offering that is pure; for My name will be great among the nations,” says the LORD of hosts.
Why do you hate scripture? why only quoting half a verse to support your lie?
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