The Atonement: Which is The Bible's Teaching?

[utilyan]

The Penal is trying to take away from Christ who is risen.


Romans 5

9Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. 10For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.


If it worked the way you think it does he would not have said we shall be saved from the wrath of God, but that we HAD been saved.


1 Corinthians 15

13But if there is no resurrection of the dead, not even Christ has been raised; 14and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain. 15Moreover we are even found to be false witnesses of God, because we testified against God that He raised Christ, whom He did not raise, if in fact the dead are not raised. 16For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised; 17and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins.


Jesus could have died on the cross for you full stop, your faith would be worthless, you are still in your sins.

We are saved BY HIS LIFE. You can't just toss the Resurrection aside as having no part in salvation.


There is a difference between Jesus dying FOR US and Jesus dying INSTEAD OF US.

We are united with Jesus. Jesus came inclusively as one of us.


Colossians 2

9For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, 10and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority; 11and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ; 12having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, 14having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.



Without the Resurrection you have nothing.

17and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins.

 

[HankD]

We need to look at the response(s) for the posts of this thread.

Is the Spirit of God honored or grieved by these?

Not saying one's response makes one right or wrong.

What if we are right and yet grieve the Spirit with out treatment of one another disobeying the one command of basic and primitive simplicity.

John 13
34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

I'm no different - usually my mean spirited responses don't make it through the keyboard to the screen.

That's better.

HankD

 

[MennoSota]

The Penal is trying to take away from Christ who is risen.


Romans 5

9Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. 10For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.


If it worked the way you think it does he would not have said we shall be saved from the wrath of God, but that we HAD been saved.


1 Corinthians 15

13But if there is no resurrection of the dead, not even Christ has been raised; 14and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain. 15Moreover we are even found to be false witnesses of God, because we testified against God that He raised Christ, whom He did not raise, if in fact the dead are not raised. 16For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised; 17and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins.


Jesus could have died on the cross for you full stop, your faith would be worthless, you are still in your sins.

We are saved BY HIS LIFE. You can't just toss the Resurrection aside as having no part in salvation.


There is a difference between Jesus dying FOR US and Jesus dying INSTEAD OF US.

We are united with Jesus. Jesus came inclusively as one of us.


Colossians 2

9For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, 10and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority; 11and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ; 12having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, 14having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.



Without the Resurrection you have nothing.

17and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins.

Utilyan, we who have been chosen as adopted children are found in Christ. By Yeshua's sacrifice we have had our sins paid (past, present, future). By Yeshua's resurrection we have assurance that the payment is acceptable to the Father. When the Father looks upon us He sees Yeshua because we are found in the Messiah, Yeshua. This is why Ephesians 1 tells us that Jesus is seated at the throne of God and then in Ephesians 2 we see that we are seated at the throne...in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 1:19-20
[19]I also pray that you will understand the incredible greatness of God’s power for us who believe him. This is the same mighty power
[20]that raised Christ from the dead and seated him in the place of honor at God’s right hand in the heavenly realms.

Ephesians 2:6-7
[6]For he raised us from the dead along with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms because we are united with Christ Jesus.
[7]So God can point to us in all future ages as examples of the incredible wealth of his grace and kindness toward us, as shown in all he has done for us who are united with Christ Jesus.

 

[Aaron]

You didn't read my post I quoted hebrews, BUT you only quote HALF OF IT.

Lol. If you weren't so grotesquely ignorant of the law, you'd see how ridiculous you sound. The law isn't just about forgiveness of sin, just as the Gospel isn't all about Jesus's death.

Some things that did not have the forgiveness of sin in view were purged with water, but the remission of sin requires the shedding of blood. Without it, there is no forgiveness of sin.

And, you failed to address Galatians.

Did Jesus bear the curse of the law? Yes.
For whom? Sinners.
For what purpose? To deliver them from it.

In short: Jesus bore the penalty of sin as my substitute.

 

[Aaron]

Anyway, you should be very glad indeed that all manner of blasphemy against the Son will be forgiven, given the flippant manner in which you defame the Cross.

As for me, I've said all that needed to be said to refute your powerless and empty gospel, little g.

 

[utilyan]

Lol. If you weren't so grotesquely ignorant of the law, you'd see how ridiculous you sound. The law isn't just about forgiveness of sin, just as the Gospel isn't all about Jesus' death.

Some things that did not have sin in view were purged with water, but the remission of sin requires the shedding of blood. Without it, there is no forgiveness of sin.

And, you failed to address Galatians.

Did Jesus bear the curse of the law? Yes.
For whom? Sinners.
For what purpose? To deliver them from it.

In short: Jesus bore the penalty of sin as my substitute.

Bearing a penalty is not a remission of sins.

You can't be swapped out, we are one with Christ.

The Resurrection was not useless.

 

[utilyan]

Anyway, you should be very glad indeed that all manner of blasphemy against the Son will be forgiven, given the flippant manner in which you defame the Cross.

As for me, I've said all that needed to be said to refute your powerless and empty gospel, little g.

what do you mean.....WILL be forgiven? If you had your story straight, you wouldn't say that.

 

[Revmitchell]

Bible verse. That God let his wrath out on Jesus, Or you are a LIAR.

2Co 5:20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.
2Co 5:21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

Rom 3:24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
Rom 3:25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.


What is propitiation?

 

[xlsdraw]

John 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

John 10:17-18 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

I love Christ because he first loved me. This much^^^^^

 

[utilyan]

2Co 5:20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.
2Co 5:21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

Rom 3:24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
Rom 3:25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.


What is propitiation?

Wonderful verses. Now how about one that says God let out his Wrath on Jesus.

You got one verse that says he takes burden sin, no wrath and anger of God on Jesus.

You got one verse that says we are redeemed by Christ, NO WRATH OF GOD ON JESUS, nothing about turning his back on Jesus.

You got one verse that says the propitiation and punishment due to men is held back. He could have said it was not held back but transfered to Jesus, he did not, AGAIN, No wrath of God on Jesus.

Show a bible verse that the Wrath of God was on Jesus, that God turned his back on Jesus,

Its no where, I looked everywhere. Closest best is Isaiah 53 in some translations.

Again no wrath of God on Jesus.

 

[MennoSota]

Wonderful verses. Now how about one that says God let out his Wrath on Jesus.

You got one verse that says he takes burden sin, no wrath and anger of God on Jesus.

You got one verse that says we are redeemed by Christ, NO WRATH OF GOD ON JESUS, nothing about turning his back on Jesus.

You got one verse that says the propitiation and punishment due to men is held back. He could have said it was not held back but transfered to Jesus, he did not, AGAIN, No wrath of God on Jesus.

Show a bible verse that the Wrath of God was on Jesus, that God turned his back on Jesus,

Its no where, I looked everywhere. Closest best is Isaiah 53 in some translations.

Again no wrath of God on Jesus.

.

 

[MennoSota]

Five Truths About the Wrath of God | Desiring God

 

[Revmitchell]

Wonderful verses. Now how about one that says God let out his Wrath on Jesus.

You got one verse that says he takes burden sin, no wrath and anger of God on Jesus.

You got one verse that says we are redeemed by Christ, NO WRATH OF GOD ON JESUS, nothing about turning his back on Jesus.

You got one verse that says the propitiation and punishment due to men is held back. He could have said it was not held back but transfered to Jesus, he did not, AGAIN, No wrath of God on Jesus.

Show a bible verse that the Wrath of God was on Jesus, that God turned his back on Jesus,

Its no where, I looked everywhere. Closest best is Isaiah 53 in some translations.

Again no wrath of God on Jesus.

Do you know what propitiation means?

 

[Yeshua1]

Bible verse. That God let his wrath out on Jesus, Or you are a LIAR.

Isaiah 53

 

[Yeshua1]

I see some merit in several. For example, the Ransom Theory (apart from Origen others in the early church held to a more general Ransom Theory - that we were redeemed or ransomed from sin and death) looks at an important aspect of the Atonement. Anselem's Theory laid the foundation for Luther's substitutionary view (add Aquinas) which led to Penal Substitution. All three focus on important truths of the same Atonement. Grotius' position points to the difference Scripture holds between the World and the Kingdom, rightly identifying the crux of this difference within the Atonement itself. And Paul tells us that the same love that Christ had in that he gave himself for us is the love we are to exercise, which is not us but "Christ in us" (there is a supernatural influence exercised over man, through the atonement, to change us into new creatures created in Christ to do good works which God prepared beforehand). And Scripture presents Jesus as the "Last Adam", representing mankind as an atonement...a "Spotless Lamb"...effecting repentance where we could not. The "traditional" position was less a theory and more a motif, and I'd include this general idea of Christus Victor as well, that the Atonement was also a victory over sin and death reconciling God and men.

All of these theories can be problematic if assigned primacy and taken in isolation (or to deny truths examined by other theories). For example, the Ransom Theory becomes problematic when it is taken as a ransom paid by God to Satan (not necessarily the only idea conveyed by that theory); Penal Substitution becomes problematic when the "punishment" shifts from a penalty due mankind to God's wrath against certain people inflicted on Christ; the Governmental Theory presents issues when restricted only to such principalities; the Example theory falls apart separated from the supernatural work of redemption and recreation of men...ect.).

The primary one would be the Penal substitution viewpoint though, as that would be the very one held by Jesus and His apostles, as they tied it into the sacrificial system of the OT as a shadow of Him to come!

 

[utilyan]

Do you know what propitiation means?

Teach me Rev.

 

[Revmitchell]

Teach me Rev.

I gave you a link to it. Do you actually read posts before quoting them

 

[utilyan]

Five Truths About the Wrath of God | Desiring God

Find one place where a bible verse actually mentions God's wrath on Jesus.


Gods wrath is mighty! God's wrath is Just! Because of Jesus, You won't Go through God's wrath!

God's wrath can suck a nickel through a straw.

You can get as grand as you want to get or like that link you have the people put made up quotes to pass for bible verses.

No where does it say God's wrath went on Jesus. Is it next to the part Jesus says God's wrath tickles?

There has always been the cross and then the Resurrection.

But now you guys want to add a FAKE EVENT not written in scripture.

 

[Yeshua1]

Find one place where a bible verse actually mentions God's wrath on Jesus.


Gods wrath is mighty! God's wrath is Just! Because of Jesus, You won't Go through God's wrath!

God's wrath can suck a nickel through a straw.

You can get as grand as you want to get or like that link you have the people put made up quotes to pass for bible verses.

No where does it say God's wrath went on Jesus. Is it next to the part Jesus says God's wrath tickles?

There has always been the cross and then the Resurrection.

But now you guys want to add a FAKE EVENT not written in scripture.

You must not have Isaiah 53 in your Catholic Bible!

 

[Revmitchell]

Find one place where a bible verse actually mentions God's wrath on Jesus.


Gods wrath is mighty! God's wrath is Just! Because of Jesus, You won't Go through God's wrath!

God's wrath can suck a nickel through a straw.

You can get as grand as you want to get or like that link you have the people put made up quotes to pass for bible verses.

No where does it say God's wrath went on Jesus. Is it next to the part Jesus says God's wrath tickles?

There has always been the cross and then the Resurrection.

But now you guys want to add a FAKE EVENT not written in scripture.

I'm embarrassed for you