I believe you are mixed up in a way that even your superiors would disagree. The implication here is that the TRINITY ceased therefore it is not eternal.
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The Atonement: Which is The Bible's Teaching?
- Thread starter AndyMartin
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I believe you are mixed up in a way that even your superiors would disagree. The implication here is that the TRINITY ceased therefore it is not eternal.
You know anger comes from the frustration of not having a perfect solution. If there was a magic button that would rectify all things you would never be angry.
Which is why one would have to convince me that God was frustrated without solution to where he has to exact his anger on Jesus.
Which is why one would have to convince me that God was frustrated without solution to where he has to exact his anger on Jesus.
Thanks. I understand the theory (although I think it wrong) and with your clarification I understand you to be saying Jesus never ceased being one with the Father.
He always was one with Father in His Deity, as God can not change, but in His humanity, he experienced all that a lost sinner will when judged by God!
Jesus as God would not be seperated from the trinity, but as a man, He felt as if he were!
The wrath of God is HOLY anger directed towards unholy objects of wrath. Has God a right to do that?
Thanks. I know the theory and appreciate your clarification.
Taking a simulation of wrath is not the same as the actual wrath.
Taking on the punishment or consequence due mankind because of sin is not the same as being punished with the punishment due the individual sins of the elect either. Unfortunately I think that you will find philosophy wins out over Scripture alone on this issue.
Katarina Von Bora
Active Member
I agree totally. Else your a Liar.
I also believe I would be in MORE trouble with God if I were "RIGHT" holding spite against you.
The claim is there is a verse where God decrees, judges and states "all mankind deserves hell".
So naturally its a matter of pointing out the verse.
If that verse is not there when they say it is, does that make them a liar?
A rose by any other name is still a rose.
Its very true people attack character when they can't attack the content. Sometimes It takes a lot of humility to utter the truth, "that verse does not exist".
Here you go. There are many more.
Romans 5:12English Standard Version (ESV)
12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—
Genesis 6:5English Standard Version (ESV)
5 The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Psalm 51:5English Standard Version (ESV)
5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
and in sin did my mother conceive me.
Psalm 58:3English Standard Version (ESV)
3 The wicked are estranged from the womb;
they go astray from birth, speaking lies.
Ecclesiastes 9:3English Standard Version (ESV)
3 This is an evil in all that is done under the sun, that the same event happens to all. Also, the hearts of the children of man are full of evil, and madness is in their hearts while they live, and after that they go to the dead.
Jeremiah 17:9English Standard Version (ESV)
9 The heart is deceitful above all things,
and desperately sick;
who can understand it?
Romans 3:10-12English Standard Version (ESV)
10 as it is written:
“None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”
Isaiah 53:6English Standard Version (ESV)
6 All we like sheep have gone astray;
we have turned—every one—to his own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.
Proverbs 14:12English Standard Version (ESV)
12 There is a way that seems right to a man,
but its end is the way to death.
John 8:43English Standard Version (ESV)
43 Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word.
John 6:44English Standard Version (ESV)
44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
Romans 8:7English Standard Version (ESV)
7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot.
Reformed theology is true. Jesus died for the elect, chosen before the foundation of the world.
John 15:16: "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you."
John 1:12,13: "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."
Acts 13:48: "And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed."
Romans 9:15-16: "For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy."
Romans 9:22-24: "What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?"
Ephesians 1:4-5: "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,"
Ephesians 1:11: "In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:"
Philippians 1:29: "For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;"
1 Thessalonians 1:4-5: "Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God. For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake."
2 Thessalonians 2:13: "But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:"
2 Timothy 1:9: "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,"
Ephesians 2:8-10 - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God
John 6:37 - All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
John 6:44 - 4 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
1 Peter 1:2 - Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
All beautiful bible lines not one states that God spoke or decreed that ALL MANKIND DESERVES HELL.
As a given, let me write in a verse that does not exist yet supersedes all the lines you just gave ,
"all mankind is going straight to hell". That said, does not state that God says all mankind deserves hell.
So if the entire bible or verse or chapter clearly conveys all mankind goes to hell, it has no bearing on the statement "all mankind deserves hell". That is a judgement only God alone can make.
Find the verse.
Jesus was the Sin Bearer, and God poured ot his deserved wrath against our sins upon Jesus, as he bore those sins while on the tree in the sense as being the One on whom God;s wrath fell upon in full!
We know that ANY sin still abiding on a person gets them condemned and judged to Hell, Jesus Himself stated that we stand a;lready condemned!
Jesus took the SAME wrath in full God will pour upon all who have Rejected Jesus!
I agree completely with the passages you apply to the Atonement. I disagree with the reasoning you carry into those passages. That said,we have more common ground than not.
Just as long as we both agree that Jesus died as the atonement for our sins, and that God raised Him from the dead to freely justify us!
Nope. Jesus Christ has never been ETERNALLY SEPARATED from the Father. He has not even endured one man's damnation.
Yes. I never thought (and hopefully you don't think implied) that we were less than united in Christ over this disagreement. At one time I held your view (I grew up in a church that taught of God "turning His back" on Jesus and accepted that position at face value). Now I hold a more Trinitarian position regarding the doctrine of the Cross as a whole. I was not "less saved" or walking further from God when I held my previous view. Being "like Christ" doesn't mean possessing all the right answers, but a life marked with His love in submission to God. I believe this describes you, and despite my struggles with sins in my own life I hope that it describes me as well.
I argue strongly against your position because I believe it an error that obscures certain truths of the Atonement (e.g., the love of the Father towards His Son on the Cross), not because I believe you have rejected the gospel message. And it makes me go back and revisit my own doctrines and evaluate what I bring into the passage verses what is actually there.
I believe this is what you get when one starts building theology on theory. We look at the Atonement and narrow it down to a "priority" (which, unfortunately, also means we minimize other aspects of the Atonement as less important). And then we start building a narrative to get from point A to point B, and from B to C.
For example - Scripture teaches that Christ's death was an atoning sacrifice (to include the more specific propitiation for human sin). He bore our sins and was wounded for our transgressions. Jesus took upon Himself the consequences of human sin (which could be physical death, but this is ignored in favor of a spiritual death). So Jesus took upon himself the consequences, which is a punishment for our sin. Jesus took our punishment. He took our punishment individually to account for each sin we committed. The Father punished Jesus. Jesus is our substitute so He took our place. Taking our place the Father looked at Jesus as if He was us. The Father punished the Son with our punishment. If we were not saved we would be condemned to Hell "on that day". Jesus must have experienced Hell on the Cross....which means being cast away from the presence of God. ect. Theory and ideas built upon theory and ideas and taken as if it were Scripture itself.
He experienced hell upon the Cross while He was becoming the sin bearer!
He, in His humanity, was feeling the same as all lost will in hell...
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