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God controls quite a lot or God controls all?

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by MennoSota, Aug 6, 2017.

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  1. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    Reynolds made a comment that gets to one of the differences between Arminians and Calvinists. He said:
    Can anyone define what the "important things" are that God controls and what the unimportant things are that God does not control?
    If you have scripture verses that differentiate the two I would be curious to read them.

    What are the important things that God manages and the unimportant things that God does not concern himself with?
     
    #1 MennoSota, Aug 6, 2017
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  2. Calv1

    Calv1 Active Member

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    All things that come to pass are ordained by God. What's sad is some will study and find out that this is true, then find out how, others will just say "No that's not my God". It's fact, so end of post.
     
    #2 Calv1, Aug 6, 2017
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  3. Calv1

    Calv1 Active Member

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    I like Grudem's "Systematic Theology" on this topic. He starts with biblical quotes on creation, then plants and animals, "IE who makes the Ostrich forget her eggs", then the weather, all the way to man. It's undeniable, it's why I can't take Arminians seriously.

    I yes administrator most "Arminians" are actually "Semi-Pelagians", if you knew Classical Arminianism you'd see they are much closer to us, so I just call them what they are. One guy said "I'm glad I'm not a Calvinist", what he's saying is "I'm glad I never studied the bible".

    How you have so much patience, I guess I used to, thought I could make a difference, and yes to the guy who asked "so did God make me a Arminian", the answer is yes "For He gave them a strong delusion to believe a lie", nothing is outside of God's decree's, even the Arminians errors
     
    #3 Calv1, Aug 6, 2017
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  4. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    The patience comes in me looking back on the path God has brought me. I once was an Arminian/Semi-pelagian who openly promoted unlimited atonement and disdained the thought of limited atonement. The more I read the Bible, the more my understanding of God's sovereignty changed. I once was a full-blown synergist, but I am now a monergist. It was my own faulty, sin-filled thinking that held out my self as an important cog in salvation. I was wrong.
     
    #4 MennoSota, Aug 6, 2017
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  5. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    I disagree with your premise and I disagree with your phrasing of the question. It's just another one of a Calvinist's useless hypothetical questions.

    Also, I don't believe you are portraying anyone's belief. Nevertheless, for the purpose of discussion I will answer your (loaded) question in a way that a Calvinist would understand.

    Whatever is in his decretive will.

    Whatever is his permissive will.

    Knowing which is which is a mystery.



    Sent from my Motorola Droid Turbo.
     
    #5 InTheLight, Aug 6, 2017
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  6. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    Where do we find the concept of decretive will and permissive will in the Bible so that you can present the idea of important things vs unimportant things?
     
    #6 MennoSota, Aug 6, 2017
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  7. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    I have no idea. That's another Calvinist construct that I've never found in the Bible.

    Sent from my Motorola Droid Turbo.
     
    #7 InTheLight, Aug 6, 2017
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  8. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    Why did you bring it up if you are clueless?
    At present you have provided no benefit to this thread, but thanks for unloading your self-made bitterness toward Calvinism. Has it made you feel better?
     
    #8 MennoSota, Aug 6, 2017
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  9. Rob_BW

    Rob_BW Well-Known Member
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    Does ordain = control?

    If a group is trying to avoid confusion and accusations of determinism, then there are better, more precise words in the English language to use than control.

    In control? Certainly. Behind the controls? Uh...that one sounds like it's veering into determinism, at least to my ears.
     
    #9 Rob_BW, Aug 6, 2017
  10. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    The better word, as it relates to what Reynolds said, is manages.

    How might you define managing? Is it equal to ordaining? I don't think managing and ordaining are synonymns.
     
    #10 MennoSota, Aug 6, 2017
  11. Rob_BW

    Rob_BW Well-Known Member
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    I don't know, are we including micromanaging?:D

    But seriously, that seems like a good description, as the manager should be there to apply pressure to keep things on track. But then, others' experience with management might not mirror my own.
     
    #11 Rob_BW, Aug 6, 2017
  12. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    Where do we see God acting as a manager in scripture rather than as a ruler?
     
    #12 MennoSota, Aug 6, 2017
  13. Rob_BW

    Rob_BW Well-Known Member
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    Does a ruler manage?
     
    #13 Rob_BW, Aug 6, 2017
  14. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    I am doing my best to honestly portray his position. If I get it wrong, correct me. I believe the person who recently mentioned it, defined it, and brought the terms into this discussion was TCassidy.
     
    #14 Reynolds, Aug 6, 2017
  15. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    He can. Thats the point. He can do what he wants and not do what he does not want. That is what makes him the ruler and not the ruled.
     
    #15 Reynolds, Aug 6, 2017
  16. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    Is God a manager of situations or is God ruler over situations?

    Do you have any biblical support for God as a manager?
     
    #16 MennoSota, Aug 6, 2017
  17. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    As usual, you are twisting the discussion.
    What is important? Whatever God decides is important.
     
    #17 Reynolds, Aug 6, 2017
  18. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    I have read both terms somewhere on the forum. I think it is a term that is extrabiblical in an attempt to define the will of God.

    I wonder how those terms fit with your concept of God as a manager.
     
    #18 MennoSota, Aug 6, 2017
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  19. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    They fit in fine if you will look at concepts and quit trying to nitpick words by using some of their weaker definitions. By default an absolute Lord is also a manager. His ruling decrees manage.
     
    #19 Reynolds, Aug 6, 2017
  20. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    So, what are the things that God says "This is important" and "This is not important"?

    Is an ingrown toenail important or not important to God? How about a dam that bursts...important or unimportant? Diabetes or glaucoma...important or unimportant? A tree limb falling...important or unimportant? Can we find anything in scripture that portrays God as making such decisions as to what is important to him and what is not important to him?
     
    #20 MennoSota, Aug 6, 2017
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