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Featured I am Genuinely Confused

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Steven Yeadon, Aug 23, 2017.

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  1. Steven Yeadon

    Steven Yeadon Well-Known Member
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    OK, I am stepping into this debate.

    I cannot fathom how certain bible verses on predestination and election can coexist with other bible verses about God wanting everyone saved. Yet they are there regardless of what I think.

    My first thought is that God can have it both ways: yes there is predestination but somehow He wants all saved, but that seems nonsensical to me on fundamental levels. Of course, it might be I cannot fathom the mind of God. I am a worm, a slug to God after all.

    Assuming I could be wrong and the answer obvious in the bible though, for predestination I usually think of the following bible verses:
    1. Ephesians 1-2
    2. Romans 9-11
    3. Psalms 139:16
    4. Revelation 13:8, Revelation 17:8

    However, the book of life itself is confusing since Exodus 32:31-33 and Revelation 3:5 seem to indicate that everyone is written in the book and they are blotted out for iniquity.

    Of course Ephesians 1-2, Romans 9-11, and Psalms 139:16 seem definitive to me, and were for a short time until I found Ezekiel 18.

    Ezekiel 18 makes it so abundantly clear that God wants all to repent and be saved that I am genuinely confused. When I pray that His will is done on earth as it is in heaven, I know now that this means that I should pray that all repent and be saved. I have also looked for more beyond Ezekiel 18 and that gets me into the regular suspects of Arminian verses I see debated all the time about God wanting all saved and the idea that Jesus died for all people, but not all will be saved.

    I also have the verse Romans 3:25-26 that seems to indicate God considered it unrighteous and possibly unjust not to send Jesus.

    I want to get at the bottom of this though. However, I do feel far more inclined to believe in free will, but then again that is likely because I am a normal Westerner.

    So what say you all? Have I missed something?
     
    #1 Steven Yeadon, Aug 23, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2017
  2. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    Join the confused club. It has many members including me.
     
    #2 Reynolds, Aug 23, 2017
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  3. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    The two make perfect sense when you understand how God's will works in conjunction with His Holiness, His Justice, and His Mercy and Grace.

    The problem many people have is they focus on themselves rather than on Christ regarding salvation.

    O soul, are you weary and troubled?
    No light in the darkness you see?
    There’s light for a look at the Savior,
    And life more abundant and free.

    Turn your eyes upon Jesus,
    Look full in His wonderful face,
    And the things of earth will grow strangely dim,
    In the light of His glory and grace.

    Through death into life everlasting
    He passed, and we follow Him there;
    O’er us sin no more hath dominion
    For more than conqu’rors we are!

    His Word shall not fail you, He promised;
    Believe Him and all will be well;
    Then go to a world that is dying,
    His perfect salvation to tell!
     
    #3 TCassidy, Aug 23, 2017
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  4. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    Let's go to the heart of Ezekiel 18. I am posting the verses I believe summarize the whole chapter.

    Ezekiel 18:2-3,5,10,14,18,20-21,23,32
    [2]“Why do you quote this proverb concerning the land of Israel: ‘The parents have eaten sour grapes, but their children’s mouths pucker at the taste’?
    [3]As surely as I live, says the Sovereign lord, you will not quote this proverb anymore in Israel.
    [5]“Suppose a certain man is righteous and does what is just and right.
    [10]“But suppose that man has a son who grows up to be a robber or murderer and refuses to do what is right.
    [14]“But suppose that sinful son, in turn, has a son who sees his father’s wickedness and decides against that kind of life.
    [18]But the father will die for his many sins—for being cruel, robbing people, and doing what was clearly wrong among his people.
    [20]The person who sins is the one who will die. The child will not be punished for the parent’s sins, and the parent will not be punished for the child’s sins. Righteous people will be rewarded for their own righteous behavior, and wicked people will be punished for their own wickedness.
    [21]But if wicked people turn away from all their sins and begin to obey my decrees and do what is just and right, they will surely live and not die.
    [23]“Do you think that I like to see wicked people die? says the Sovereign lord. Of course not! I want them to turn from their wicked ways and live.
    [32]I don’t want you to die, says the Sovereign lord. Turn back and live!

    We need to understand that Ezekiel is addressing exiles living near the Euphrates River in Babylon. The people are quoting a common phrase and bemoaning that God is punishing them because the people before them had lived in sin, but they thought their lives were more righteous. They wondered why they were being punished. God is responding to them.
    First, God is not answering a theological question regarding eternal salvation. God is answering a practical question about being judged for the present actions of individuals.
    God says to the exiles that if a person lives a bad life that lifestyle will result in death. It is the consequence of lifestyle choice. However, if a person chooses to a life of obedience to God's decree that person will not have the same struggles and will live.
    God says He wants people to live, not die. God is addressing physical life and death...not spiritual life and death...in Ezekiel 18.
    Therefore, it is not good exegesis to use Ezekiel 18 as a prooftext regarding eternal salvation when the context of Ezekiel is not even addressing that subject. Thus the Arminians case is left empty and hollow if he attempts to use Ezekiel as his justification for free will. The argument falls to pieces.
     
    #4 MennoSota, Aug 23, 2017
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  5. Steven Yeadon

    Steven Yeadon Well-Known Member
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    I had thought about that. That this is addressed to the holy people only or that it is meant only for these people. However, I must state that I do not see it that way so easily. There do seem to be passages in Ezekiel 18 that are phrased for universal as opposed to individual matters.

    I am using the NASB.

    Ezekiel 18:3-4 is phrased for these Israelites and as a command from the mouth of God it applies to all Israelites who hold to the scriptures.

    That said, could the passage be associated with the death penalty crimes of the Law and their earthly capital punishments? That may help your case. In this way Ezekiel 18:14-18 can be shown to say that the Law of God punishes sinners for their crimes against God, it does not punish anyone beyond the criminal such as his family. It is an explanation of why the Law is the Law it seems.

    Very interesting I just noticed that Ezekiel 18:19 God uses reason to beat an argument against the Law.

    Ezekiel (18:20-22) is certainly a universal statement about how God and His Law punishes or acquits others. It is totally in line with Jesus regarding his disciples in (Matthew 12:36-37). Our words, and James tells us actions, change when we are born again by the Spirit.

    (Ezekiel 18:25-29) strikes me as a serious explanation for how God dealt with David over the murder of Uriah and his adultery with Bathsheba, as such it seems a statement of how God works universally not only from its wording but also from history. The part about punishment of death upon a normally righteous person also has historical validity with (1 Kings 13:11-26) . The disobedient prophet like some other examples I can find in the bible if I look carefully, was killed for his one time disobedience.

    However, I do see now that these are not statements about the afterlife, but statements about how God works in accordance with us on earth.

    I see now that the whole crux of using Ezekiel 18 as a counter to predestination is Ezekiel 18:23 and Ezekiel 18:32. I must now address all the scriptures I know of that lead me to believe that God wants all saved. I will do another post in this thread in time when I have had time to think.
     
    #5 Steven Yeadon, Aug 23, 2017
  6. Steven Yeadon

    Steven Yeadon Well-Known Member
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    Could you explain further?
     
    #6 Steven Yeadon, Aug 23, 2017
  7. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    I applaud your attempt to understand. I grew up as an Arminian and the reason for my shift was due to reading scripture and seeking to understand the context surrounding every verse used for both sides of the argument.
    May your earnest and honest observation be rewarded with a confidence in the Almighty Sovereign God.
     
    #7 MennoSota, Aug 23, 2017
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  8. Steven Yeadon

    Steven Yeadon Well-Known Member
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    OK verses that support God wanting to save all people that I know of are:

    (Isaiah 45:22)
    (Ezekiel 18:23)
    (Ezekiel 18:32)
    (1 Timothy 2:1-6)
    (2 Peter 3:7-9)
    (Matthew 23:37)

    I now get that to me these verses are absolutely conclusive that God does want to save everyone. To argue against that is to argue against God to me at this moment. I'll give it more time to get past my emotion. I was going to list the verses that I feel I can't argue with on both sides, but this project is emotionally taxing. Just putting these verses in is emotionally taxing, but I believe I found all the ones that seem conclusive. Only further readings of bible and deep research will explain otherwise.

    However, Romans 9, Romans 10, Romans 11, Ephesians 1, and Ephesians 2 seem categorical in their teaching as well that God arranged who would be saved and who would go to the lake of burning sulfur from before Creation. I will have to turn to looking at these verses in a watchful light to see if I am misreading them and I will now lay out verses that support double predestination.

    Has anyone ever seen a theology that says God wants all saved and that He predestined all afterlives at the same time?

    -EDIT-

    I am also struck by the logic in Jonah 3 and Jonah 4 that the Lord uses for why He is saving Nineveh. It seems to indicate that everyone should be given a chance to repent.
     
    #8 Steven Yeadon, Aug 23, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2017
  9. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    One mistake people seem to make is thinking of God as if He were man, only bigger. What gets ignored here is that God is Creator. He made us. He knows us, and our natures, even more than we know ourselves. He created us, after all.

    You are right to believe in free-will (in terms of men making free choices). This is biblical. In fact, there is just as many passages affirming this type of free-will as there are passages affirming God's divine sovereignty in the results of those choices. Where people depart from Scripture is when they have to have it one way or another.

    Here is an example - when Paul was going to Rome an angel appeared to him telling him the ship would be destroyed but no lives lost for the ship must run aground on a certain island. In the storm Paul told the guards that if the sailors escaped "you yourselves cannot be saved". Paul knew the ship would be wrecked and no one lost. This knowledge galvanized him into action (the sailors had a choice, but the outcome had already been declared).
     
    #9 JonC, Aug 23, 2017
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  10. Steven Yeadon

    Steven Yeadon Well-Known Member
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    Thank you, that was striking me as God seemed to become more "defined" due to my study, even though He is the Creator Who made us and the rest of the creation. A creation beyond my comprehension, especially when I ask myself why He made such and such the way He did.
     
    #10 Steven Yeadon, Aug 23, 2017
  11. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    In terms of free-will and predestination, I also like the story of Oedipus. Laius’ actions contributes to the fate he is determined to avoid, and Oedipus’ actions fall (unknown to Oedipus) exactly in line with the prophesy. While this is only an illustration (and a myth), it also illustrates that free-will and predetermination are not necessarily diametrically opposed.
     
    #11 JonC, Aug 23, 2017
  12. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    May I point out that with your first group you present specific verses by themselves. In the second group you present chapters. Remember that context drives the meaning of a sentence. I presented the entire chapter of Ezekiel 18 for that reason.
    The fact that one has individual verses while the other has chapters should give you pause and cause you to study context of the full chapter to see what the author was saying.
     
    #12 MennoSota, Aug 23, 2017
  13. Steven Yeadon

    Steven Yeadon Well-Known Member
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    I'll have to list specific verses drawn form the context for my post that will try and show that people are predestined. Thank you.
     
    #13 Steven Yeadon, Aug 23, 2017
  14. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    On the contrary. Let the entire passage dictate the meaning of one or two sentences.
     
    #14 MennoSota, Aug 23, 2017
  15. Steven Yeadon

    Steven Yeadon Well-Known Member
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    Reading Ephesians 1 and Ephesians 2 it is obvious it is meant for those individuals Paul is talking to. It is not for all humanity, which means that Paul is telling us to celebrate our election even though all are not elected. Thus I have solid context for those two passages that supports predestination.

    I read Romans 9 again and stopped. I have a huge emotional aversion to (Romans 9:20-24). That is my whole emotional rebellion against predestination I see now. I do not want to use that logic to defend the faith against its detractors who will ask me "why aren't all people going to heaven?"

    That said, if I accept Romans 9:20-24 is inspired from God, then all intellectual aversion to predestination ends. I see this has become a very personal and emotional journey (again as starting threads always seems to do that to me). I will have to ruminate on what happens if I assume Romans 9:20-24 in context is correct and see where I go from there.

    -EDIT-

    Intellectually the problem I have now is making sense of the verses that say God wants all to repent and be saved in light of the reality of Romans 9.
     
    #15 Steven Yeadon, Aug 23, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2017
  16. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    One thing that helped me arrive at a conclusion I could reconcile with Scripture was reading Jonathan Edwards. Edwards is often quoted by people (usually Calvinists) arguing against free-will. But if you read Edwards it is not free-will in terms of men choosing freely but rather the idea that our wills are independent of constraint that he rejects. Our wills, the choices we make, are a reflection of who we are (and this is affirmed throughout Scripture – our actions come from our heart).

    Edwards examined predestination from the standpoint that included divine omniscience rather than sovereignty alone. If God is omniscient then everything is predetermined to occur exactly as God knew it would occur. In creating God determined by decree, through speaking into existence, all that would befall man. There is no need to dissect God’s nature, attributes, or qualities (which is where the dichotomy between divine will and human free agency comes into play); we can take God for God. If God is omniscient then we need go no further to know all is predestined (actually decreed) to occur as events unfold.

    What you will find very often are Calvinists who see nothing but divine sovereignty and non-Calvinists who see nothing but human sovereignty. Both are equally deficient views and both have reduced God to a quality that suits a particular viewpoint…although if I had to choose one over the other I would choose the Calvinist.
     
    #16 JonC, Aug 24, 2017
  17. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Make sure you are carefully and correctly defining terms and the confusion goes away and no, you are not a slug to God. We were made in His image, we are His special creation, and cannot be considered a slug.
     
    #17 Revmitchell, Aug 24, 2017
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  18. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I think the difficulty is often in how we examine these things. The key is to first accept them as true regardless as to our understanding simply because it is God's Word.

    I do not see a dichotomy between God desiring that all be saved and God creating men who will not be saved for some purpose. If God desired people to be lost, if He took pleasure in the destruction of the wicked, then His character is diminished. Too often the arguments consider God as if He is governed by simple desire. God can desire all to be saved yet still create those who will not be saved for His own purposes.
     
    #18 JonC, Aug 24, 2017
  19. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    You say God is addressing a specific group of people in a specific geographical region.

    Yet when I point out that God is addressing non-Jews when he speaks in Psalm 14:2 about no one seeking God, I am told that God never changes, he's the same yesterday, today, and forever, and this verse certainly applies to people nowadays. But this verse in Ezekiel is region, time, and people specific.

    "Get a new heart and spirit!" is not a theological comment? Okey-dokey.

    “Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. 31 Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit.

    So when God judges someone that indicates a physical judgment of life and death, not a spiritual one. "Get a new heart and new spirit" is NOT referring to spiritual matters it literally means to get Christian Barnard to do open heart surgery and do a heart transplant!

    Do you not see the twisting and contortion you must do to scripture to support your systematic Calvinist theology?
     
    #19 InTheLight, Aug 24, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2017
  20. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    LOL, I recognize that context is important. I also note how we addressed your concerns regarding Romans 3 and showed how the context applies.
    What you struggle with is the fact that there are literally extended passages addressing election and predestination while you must reduce your argument to a sentence (almost always out of context) in order to fit your presupposition.
    The twisting and contortion is found in your camp more than any place else. It is disappointing to see the lack of exegetical prowess displayed by Arminians and Semi-Pelagians.
     
    #20 MennoSota, Aug 24, 2017
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