1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured Acts 13:48

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by SheepWhisperer, Aug 21, 2017.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Top Posters
Page 3 of 7
  1. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    28,742
    Likes Received:
    1,136
    Faith:
    Baptist
    But as many as were influenced by Paul's gospel direction to eternal life believed. :) :)
     
    #41 Van, Aug 23, 2017
    • Funny Funny x 1
  2. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2005
    Messages:
    20,080
    Likes Received:
    3,491
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Still can't understand the difference between an active, middle, and passive voice verb. Even after it was explained 3 times. That is so sad.
     
    #42 TCassidy, Aug 23, 2017
    • Like Like x 2
  3. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    21,242
    Likes Received:
    2,305
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Great.....except.....it does not say that....it says as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. You hate the truth of God...on each verse you wrest...if you do not cease your rebellion, to your own destruction.
    We warn cultists when they twist scripture.....are we not going to warn You?
    You are in danger.....inability to welcome truth is a sign of the unregenerate.
     
    #43 Iconoclast, Aug 23, 2017
    • Like Like x 1
  4. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2017
    Messages:
    2,727
    Likes Received:
    443
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    A certain person relishes pushing buttons...much like a child who pushes all the buttons in an elevator just to see how much he can irritate the other riders. Best to ignore and go to a different elevator.
     
    #44 MennoSota, Aug 23, 2017
    • Like Like x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  5. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    26,977
    Likes Received:
    2,537
    Faith:
    Baptist
    SW this debate can never end because IMO the word "ordained" is not the issue.

    The issue is - Why did God ordain them to eternal life in a manner in which they were the passive recipients?

    Was it because in the eternity of His foreknowledge or His sovereign decree?
    This is the essence of the C and A tension.

    Why let it bother you?

    Luke 10:20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

    We should all enter fully into His rest (Hebrews 3 and 4).

    HankD
     
    #45 HankD, Aug 23, 2017
    • Like Like x 1
  6. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2005
    Messages:
    19,715
    Likes Received:
    585
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Why did God ordain some to eternal life? Because it pleased him to do so. "To the praise of His glorious grace。“ Eph. 1:6.
     
    #46 Rippon, Aug 23, 2017
    • Like Like x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
  7. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    28,742
    Likes Received:
    1,136
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Folks, notice the denial of the meaning of tasso in Acts 13:48. It does indeed say they were influenced (acted upon - passive) by Paul's gospel direction. The verbal adjective describes the subjects (as many as) who mutually agreed with the direction given by Paul. I documented how the word is used in scripture, the lexiconal usage (to agree upon direction) and provided a translation that conveys the intended message. OTOH, your side uses a mistranslation, the word never means ordained or predestined, another Greek word is used when that is the message.
     
    #47 Van, Aug 24, 2017
    • Funny Funny x 1
  8. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    28,742
    Likes Received:
    1,136
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Hi Rippon, no accurate translation of Acts 13:48 says God ordained (predestined) folks. The direction to eternal life was provided by the gospel through Paul's presentation. As many as were influenced by Paul's gospel direction to eternal life believed.
     
    #48 Van, Aug 24, 2017
    • Funny Funny x 1
  9. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    26,977
    Likes Received:
    2,537
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Hmm, "your side" IMO "your view" would be better - just saying.

    Also Van "mistranslation" is a harsh term. There are other translations which use "ordained" or another word other than "appoint".

    ASV Acts 13:48 And as the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of God: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

    RSV Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of God; and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

    Douay-Rheims
    Acts 13:48 And the Gentiles hearing it were glad and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to life everlasting believed.

    The Darby Bible
    Acts 13:48 And those of the nations, hearing it, rejoiced, and glorified the word of the Lord, and believed, as many as were ordained to eternal life.

    The New American Bible
    Acts 13:48 The Gentiles were delighted when they heard this and glorified the word of the Lord. All who were destined for eternal life came to believe,

    The New Jerusalem Bible
    Acts 13:48 It made the gentiles very happy to hear this and they gave thanks to the Lord for his message; all who were destined for eternal life became believers.

    FWIW I make no claim to calvinism.

    HankD
     
    #49 HankD, Aug 24, 2017
  10. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2005
    Messages:
    20,080
    Likes Received:
    3,491
    Faith:
    Baptist
    LOL! ROFLOL! You "documented" the wrong words, as my earlier post pointed out, which you ignored either out of perversity or because you didn't understand. I suspect the latter.

    LOL! "To agree" is ACTIVE voice. Once again you display your utter ignorance! This would be funny if it were not so sad.

    The intended message is exactly what it says. τεταγμενοι a perfect passive participle, to be appointed.
     
    #50 TCassidy, Aug 24, 2017
    • Winner Winner x 1
  11. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2005
    Messages:
    19,715
    Likes Received:
    585
    Faith:
    Baptist
    "...believed, even as many as were ordained unto eternal life." (Wm. Tyndale translation 1534)
    "...and as many as had been destined for eternal life became believers." (NRSV）
    “...and those who were marked out for eternal life became believers." (REB)
    "... and all who were appointed for eternal life believed." (NIV, NIrV)
    "All those who were destined for eternal life believed...." (Phillips)
     
    #51 Rippon, Aug 24, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2017
    • Agree Agree x 1
  12. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    28,742
    Likes Received:
    1,136
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Hi Hank, I saw a listing where ordained appeared 8 times versus appointed 11 times. But as I showed, the word would best be translated directed. Thus "destined, devoted, ordained, appointed" are less than the best translations. The harsh term is reserved for ordained (predestined) as the word never is used that way. Therefore "ordained" is a mistranslation. Also "devoted" or " devoted themselves" is a mistranslation because the verbal adjective is passive, they were acted upon or "influenced" by Paul's gospel presentation.

    And pay no attention to the false theology being spewed to hide their erroneous view of Acts 13:48.
     
    #52 Van, Aug 24, 2017
    • Funny Funny x 1
  13. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    28,742
    Likes Received:
    1,136
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Next lets consider how the word group (tasso - G5021) is used in scripture. It appears 7 times in the NASB.

    1) Matthew 28:16 with the NASB translating it as "designated." Here the idea is the disciples went to the location designated by Jesus. Thus they took the direction.

    2) Acts of the Apostles 13:48 with the NASB translating it as "appointed." Here the idea is some of the Gentiles that heard the gospel's direction to eternal life from Paul believed.

    3) Acts of the Apostles 15:2 with the NASB translating it as "determined." Here the idea is a group agreed upon sending Paul. Obviously Paul mutually agreed to go, he took the direction.

    4) Acts of the Apostles 22:10 with the NASB translating it as "appointed." Here Jesus tells Paul to go and and learn what Paul has been directed to do. And again, Paul agrees and goes and learns.

    5) Acts of the Apostles 28:23 with the NASB translating it as "set." Here a group had "set" a day for Paul and thus once again they mutually agreed to accept the direction to meet on that day.

    6) Romans 13:1 with the NASB translating it as "established." Here the idea is God directed that governmental authority for the benefit of the governed.

    7) 1 Corinthians 16:15 with the NASB translating it as "devoted." Here the idea is that the a group has set themselves to the task of ministry, yet another mutually agreed upon direction.

    As you can see, tasso means to agree mutually, as in to believe in accordance with the gospel's direction to eternal life.
    But as many as were influenced by Paul's gospel direction to eternal life believed
     
    #53 Van, Aug 24, 2017
    • Funny Funny x 1
  14. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    28,742
    Likes Received:
    1,136
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Did Mr. Rippon even address why "ordained" is a mistranslation? Nope
     
    #54 Van, Aug 24, 2017
    • Funny Funny x 1
  15. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2005
    Messages:
    20,080
    Likes Received:
    3,491
    Faith:
    Baptist
    That is because it is not. As every competent reader of Greek knows. Which, of course, leaves you out.

    And in your silly list above you keep making the same ignorant error. You can't tell the difference between an active, middle, or passive verb.

    For instance:
    Matthew 28:16 (NASB) But the eleven disciples proceeded to Galilee, to the mountain which Jesus had designated.

    Οἱ δὲ ἕνδεκα μαθηταὶ ἐπορεύθησαν εἰς τὴν Γαλιλαίαν, εἰς τὸ ὄρος οὗ ἐτάξατο αὐτοῖς ὁ ᾿Ιησοῦς.

    ἐτάξατο = aorist, middle voice, indicative.

    WRONG AGAIN!
     
    #55 TCassidy, Aug 24, 2017
    • Funny Funny x 1
  16. SheepWhisperer

    SheepWhisperer Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2017
    Messages:
    590
    Likes Received:
    46
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I will try to answer each one.
    Once again; "believing" on The Lord Jesus Christ is not a "work", neither is it a "deed".

    That is correct, He saves us on HIS own terms. He gives every man "the measure of faith". How you appropriate that faith is YOUR CHOICE. That is the way God designed it and intended it from the beginning when Adam ate the fruit when God told him NOT to, all the way through the old Testament like in Deuteronomy when He told the Jews to "choose life" up to now when He commands us to "repent" and "believe the Gospel". Giving us freedom of choice is clearly part of God's plan.


    No sir, you know I have told y'all more than once that we cannot come to Jesus unless the Holy Ghost draws us. If you bring this up again, I will tell you the exact same thing again.

    No, I'm not saying that just now, I have said that repeatedly in these threads and without apology.
    Romans 1:20 covers that one.

    God is righteous and with God all things are possible, I believe He gets word to them somehow.

    Yes, that is correct! :)

    I will agree that I'm a hot mess. :) Seriously, I don't profess to know everything, but I have been born again.
     
    #56 SheepWhisperer, Aug 24, 2017
  17. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2005
    Messages:
    20,080
    Likes Received:
    3,491
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I am sorry but that is about the lamest thing I have ever read (except every post Van ever made).

    "Believe" is a verb. It is something you do.

    (I will even use the KJV, just for you.)

    Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

    Romans 10:9 οτι εαν ομολογησης εν τω στοματι σου κυριον ιησουν και πιστευσης εν τη καρδια σου οτι ο θεος αυτον ηγειρεν εκ νεκρων σωθηση

    πιστευσης - a verb, in the active voice (something you do).

    Here is another:

    Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

    Acts 16:31 οι δε ειπον πιστευσον επι τον κυριον ιησουν χριστον και σωθηση συ και ο οικος σου

    πιστευσον - a verb in the active voice. Something you do. In fact, this one is also in the imperative mood meaning it is a command to do something.

    Here is another. In the context of the healing of the blind man.

    John 9:38 And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.

    John 9:38 ο δε εφη πιστευω κυριε και προσεκυνησεν αυτω.

    πιστευω - a verb in the present, active, indicative. Something he is doing!

    Now my brother, some heart felt advice from a very old man. What you see above is the word of God. Do not deny the word of God because you have been taught error. You have, apparently, sat under the teaching/preaching of a man who does not have a good understanding of the word of God. He has taught you error. And you display that error by making absurd statements such as "believe is not a verb" or "believe is not something you do" or "believe is not a work" or "a deed." Well, of course it is! The word is a verb! Verbs indicate something you do. Some work you do. Or some deed you do! That what "verb" means.

    The dictionary says:

    verb
    1. a word used to describe an action, something you do.

    I am sorry to have to say so, brother, but your denying that "believe" is a verb/work/deed is just plain wrong. By denying what God plainly says in His inspired, infallible word, you stand on very dangerous ground. I am of the opinion that to deny the word of God is to deny the God of the word. :(

    Please. Take the time to learn to read Greek. Having a good understanding of Greek will never lead you to correct the bible. But it will always lead you to correct your errors of understanding.

    Please. You are in my prayers.
     
    #57 TCassidy, Aug 24, 2017
    • Like Like x 1
  18. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The best way to see this would be that all of them whom God had set aside, had reserved and appointed to get saved were the ones that got saved!
     
    #58 Yeshua1, Aug 24, 2017
  19. SheepWhisperer

    SheepWhisperer Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2017
    Messages:
    590
    Likes Received:
    46
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Your statement, not mine.
    Of course "believe" is a verb; and so are words like "love" "hate", "be" and "exist". Did you "hear" the word of God when you got saved? Was that works? Because "hear" is a verb too. Sir, by "works" we mean things like "giving to charity", "going to church" or putting money in the offering plate. None of that will save you. Those are physical "action verbs". You don't "do" anything to get saved. You simply "believe" in your heart. A blind, deaf, mute quadriplegic can "believe" and no one would ever see any "works" performed. Of course "believe is a "verb".
     
    #59 SheepWhisperer, Aug 24, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2017
  20. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2005
    Messages:
    20,080
    Likes Received:
    3,491
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Good. We are making progress.

    Yes, love and hate are action verbs. "Be" and "exist" on the other hand, are state of being verbs. Entirely different subject.

    Yes. I head the Gospel preached.

    Yes. It was something I did. I heard. As a deaf man who must wear hearing aids in both ears I have a pretty good understanding of how much "work" it is to hear properly.

    Yes. We know. An action verb.

    Yes. We all know that. Nobody has claimed that. Completely different subject.

    Exactly! You don't "do" anything. Including you don't "believe" to be born again. You are born again so that your new heart of faith can believe.

    Ezekiel 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

    Yes. "Believe" is an action verb. It is something you do. It is the result of being given a new heart, being born again.

    "Believe" is an action verb. My heart "beats" an action verb, but you can't see it. Because you can't see it does not mean it is not there.

    Yes. It is something you do. And you do it as a result of God's Grace, not to earn His Grace.
     
    #60 TCassidy, Aug 24, 2017
Page 3 of 7
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...