• Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Justin Martyr and Friends - Penal Substitution Theory?

Status
Not open for further replies.

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
Isaiah 53 Plainly does do that!
No, it does not. You think it does because you can't see beyond your own tradition (you are reading your theories into the text itself). Nowhere in Isaiah 53 does Scripture state that God punished Jesus with the separation and wrath the lost will experience at Judgment.

When we study Scripture we have to be able to divorce our own presuppositions from the text we are reading. You are presupposing God's punishment for sin (the consequences of sin) are retributive rather than restorative.

Here is an example:

1. You get a parking ticket The court justice demands the fine be paid. They don't care who pays the fine as the focus is on the offense and not the offender. I pay the ticket for you and justice is satisfied. This is retributive and focuses on the punishment and the crime, not the offender.

2. I rob a bank and my Hillary Clinton mask falls off during the robbery, causing me to accidentally shoot a bystander. I am arrested and convicted. My father is the judge and rightly sentences me to prison. He cannot serve my sentence for me because this is not retributive punishment. It is restorative.

You apply the first type of justice to the Atonement, ignoring the fact that most of orthodox Christianity (historically and current) doesn't agree. Simply because you cannot see the difference and how this affects the reading of Isaiah 53 doesn't make your right.
 
Last edited:

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
No, it does not. You think it does because you can't see beyond your own tradition (you are reading your theories into the text itself). Nowhere in Isaiah 53 does Scripture state that God punished Jesus with the separation and wrath the lost will experience at Judgment.
Giod crushed him with the sin debt that we owned to Him, and that Jesus was the sin bearer and faced the full wrath of God towards sins. What happens to the lost sinners when they face that? Separation from God, and eternal judgement, correct?
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
Giod crushed him with the sin debt that we owned to Him, and that Jesus was the sin bearer and faced the full wrath of God towards sins. What happens to the lost sinners when they face that? Separation from God, and eternal judgement, correct?
No, that is not correct. It is Scripture mixed with opinion (opinion I believe to be faulty).

Do you understand the difference between the two types of justice I mentioned in the last post?
 

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
No, that is not correct. It is Scripture mixed with opinion (opinion I believe to be faulty).

Do you understand the difference between the two types of justice I mentioned in the last post?
I do, and still believe that you are the one reading into the text was is not there, as in Jesus not facing from God the exact judgement for sins that lost sinners will face on Judgement day!
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
I do, and still believe that you are the one reading into the text was is not there, as in Jesus not facing from God the exact judgement for sins that lost sinners will face on Judgement day!
I understand you believe this, but thus far you have been unable to provide a passage stating what you believe to be true. Nothing in the scripture you provided states that God separated from Jesus on the Cross and that Jesus experienced what the lost will on Judgment day. NOT EVEN ONE PASSAGE!!!!!

So let's try that game I mentioned again:

Please provide a verse that states God separated from Jesus on the Cross and Jesus experienced the wrath the lost will experience at Judgment.

For your turn, ask of me for support about something I believe to be true. And we'll continue like this. Iron sharpening Iron.
 

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I understand you believe this, but thus far you have been unable to provide a passage stating what you believe to be true. Nothing in the scripture you provided states that God separated from Jesus on the Cross and that Jesus experienced what the lost will on Judgment day. NOT EVEN ONE PASSAGE!!!!!

So let's try that game I mentioned again:

Please provide a verse that states God separated from Jesus on the Cross and Jesus experienced the wrath the lost will experience at Judgment.

For your turn, ask of me for support about something I believe to be true. And we'll continue like this. Iron sharpening Iron.
First, define what you see separation from God meaning?
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
That would be the biblical position!
No, it wouldn't. As you have demonstrated, nowhere in Scripture is this stated. It is, however, your position. If, however, I've missed the verse then just state it. Where does it say this in Scripture? What you keep doing is telling me what you think Jesus and Paul thought, or giving me a verse of Scripture and saying something totally separate from the verse.

But now that we have clarified that I understand your theory, let's move on. Can you answer the question?

Also, I am willing to provide a passage for you as well. Just ask. Iron sharpening iron.
 

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
No, it wouldn't. As you have demonstrated, nowhere in Scripture is this stated. It is, however, your position. If, however, I've missed the verse then just state it. Where does it say this in Scripture? What you keep doing is telling me what you think Jesus and Paul thought, or giving me a verse of Scripture and saying something totally separate from the verse.

But now that we have clarified that I understand your theory, let's move on. Can you answer the question?

Also, I am willing to provide a passage for you as well. Just ask. Iron sharpening iron.
Jesus was cursed by God, smitten byGod, wounded and brusised by God , all for our behalf, so He indeed suffered the wrathof God in its fullest measure, as that is why he asked for the Cup to pass, as He knew just how bad that would be for Him, as he would face wrath of God, and be for first and only time separated from the Father!
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
Jesus was cursed by God, smitten byGod, wounded and brusised by God , all for our behalf, so He indeed suffered the wrathof God in its fullest measure, as that is why he asked for the Cup to pass, as He knew just how bad that would be for Him, as he would face wrath of God, and be for first and only time separated from the Father!
Again, I know your tradition. I am asking for Scripture. Type it out and put in bold where it actually states what you claim to be true.
 

Martin Marprelate

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
BTW - how did your presentation on Luther go?
The first one, on Luther, is next week. The second, on the People's Reformation in England, is the week after. I will link to them in due course. However, I have done most of the preparation so I've made a start on my post on P.S.
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
The first one, on Luther, is next week. The second, on the People's Reformation in England, is the week after. I will link to them in due course. However, I have done most of the preparation so I've made a start on my post on P.S.
Sounds interesting. I don't know much of the Reformation in England.
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
Indeed it does, and Psalm 22, 2 Corinthians 5:21 and Galatians 3:10-14.
However, I think JonC is expecting a little more from me than that, so I will try not to disappoint him.
The issue is that it's not plainly stated. Others through our history have, in fact, come away with entirely different interpretations. They were no less scholarly, intelligent, or Christian than those who walk away seeing PSA. So the difference is not one party ignoring Scripture, but instead how we interpret what we are reading.

That said, I look forward to your presentation.
 

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
The issue is that it's not plainly stated. Others through our history have, in fact, come away with entirely different interpretations. They were no less scholarly, intelligent, or Christian than those who walk away seeing PSA. So the difference is not one party ignoring Scripture, but instead how we interpret what we are reading.

That said, I look forward to your presentation.
It is not that we have no scriptures to back up the PST, but that you will read into them a different conclusion, as you are averse to having the direct and active wrath of God as a part of the atonement of Christ.
 

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
It is sometimes claimed that Justin Martyr held to the Penal Substitution Theory of Atonement (PST). Other's have mentioned in another thread that several people held this view and if you google the topic you will find several sites claiming just about everyone until fairly recently held to PST.

I believe what has occurred is that people have reached back into history to find support where none exists. The danger here is that history itself has become subjective and doctrine shallow. What is happening is that some are dismantling PST to include any mention of substitution and when they find such a mention (which if it is biblical, they will) they claim proof of Penal Substitution, rendering the term utterly meaningless and subjective.

But let's look at the evidence:

Justin Martyr, (AD 100–ca.165)

“Just as God commanded the sign to be made by the brazen serpent, and yet He is blameless; even so, though a curse lies in the law against persons who are crucified, yet no curse lies on the Christ of God, by whom all that have committed things worthy of a curse are saved. For the whole human race will be found to be under a curse. For it is written in the law of Moses, ‘Cursed is every one that continues not in all things that are written in the book of the law to do them.’ And no one has accurately done all, nor will you venture to deny this; but some more and some less than others have observed the ordinances enjoined. But if those who are under this law appear to be under a curse for not having observed all the requirements, how much more shall all the nations appear to be under a curse who practice idolatry, who seduce youths, and commit other crimes? If, then, the Father of all wished His Christ for the whole human family to take upon Him the curses of all, knowing that, after He had been crucified and was dead, He would raise Him up, why do you argue about Him, who submitted to suffer these things according to the Father’s will, as if He were accursed, and do not rather bewail yourselves? For although His Father caused Him to suffer these things in behalf of the human family, yet you did not commit the deed as in obedience to the will of God.”


What we see is penal (Jesus became a curse) and substitution (for us or for our sins). BUT this is Jesus bearing our sins, NOT facing the punishment we would have faced. It is wrong to claim this as proof Martyr held to Penal Substitution Theory.

As evidence, Martyr continues by describing what he believes this curse to be:


"For the statement in the law, 'Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree,' confirms our hope which depends on the crucified Christ, not because He who has been crucified is cursed by God, but because God foretold that which would be done by you all, and by those like to your, who do not know that this is He who existed before all, who is the eternal Priest of God, and King, and Christ.”

The curse is Christ's physical death at the hands of the Jews (per Martyr). This is all a defense of Christianity in Martyr’s Dialogue with Trypho. Not only is this not PST, but look at the scope here. Jesus is not atoning for the sins of individuals, but for the entire human race.

That said, it was not until the 3rd century that we see the beginnings of a systematic doctrine of salvation. It is safe, I think, to leave Martyr under the broad scope of Christus Victor theory, maybe Ransom Theory, but probably just at his words because even in his "Defense of Christianity" there is not enough of a doctrine to establish a systematic theory.

My conclusion is those who seek antiquity are covering flies in the ointment of their theology. It is dishonest, poor scholarship and an example of people seeing what they want to see. My concern is that this is dangerous as it leads to subjective history and shallow doctrine. And in the end, it really doesn't matter what Martyr believed (it is not something worth a Christian losing his or her integrity over).
Here is a very good article on this topic!
Historical Reflections on Substitutionary Atonement - Fuller Studio
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
I agree that both early Christians all the way to Luther believed that there was substitution to the atonement. Even the theology of men like Martyr, who held to an atonement for humanity as a whole, held aspects of substitutionary atonement. Scripture tells us - the godly for the ungodly, the righteous for the unrighteous.

What you claimed was much more specific. You claimed that Jesus experienced the separation and wrath of God that the lost would experience at Judgment because God's wrath had to be poured out on sin. And then you claimed that this was plainly stated in Scripture. So I asked you to provide the verses and put in bold where your theory is plainly stated.

Have you found a verse yet?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top