Justin Martyr and Friends - Penal Substitution Theory?

No, it does not. You think it does because you can't see beyond your own tradition (you are reading your theories into the text itself). Nowhere in Isaiah 53 does Scripture state that God punished Jesus with the separation and wrath the lost will experience at Judgment.

When we study Scripture we have to be able to divorce our own presuppositions from the text we are reading. You are presupposing God's punishment for sin (the consequences of sin) are retributive rather than restorative.

Here is an example:

1. You get a parking ticket The court justice demands the fine be paid. They don't care who pays the fine as the focus is on the offense and not the offender. I pay the ticket for you and justice is satisfied. This is retributive and focuses on the punishment and the crime, not the offender.

2. I rob a bank and my Hillary Clinton mask falls off during the robbery, causing me to accidentally shoot a bystander. I am arrested and convicted. My father is the judge and rightly sentences me to prison. He cannot serve my sentence for me because this is not retributive punishment. It is restorative.

You apply the first type of justice to the Atonement, ignoring the fact that most of orthodox Christianity (historically and current) doesn't agree. Simply because you cannot see the difference and how this affects the reading of Isaiah 53 doesn't make your right.

 

No, that is not correct. It is Scripture mixed with opinion (opinion I believe to be faulty).

Do you understand the difference between the two types of justice I mentioned in the last post?

 

I understand you believe this, but thus far you have been unable to provide a passage stating what you believe to be true. Nothing in the scripture you provided states that God separated from Jesus on the Cross and that Jesus experienced what the lost will on Judgment day. NOT EVEN ONE PASSAGE!!!!!

So let's try that game I mentioned again:

Please provide a verse that states God separated from Jesus on the Cross and Jesus experienced the wrath the lost will experience at Judgment.

For your turn, ask of me for support about something I believe to be true. And we'll continue like this. Iron sharpening Iron.

 

Withdrawing His presence (not that Jesus ceased to be God but that the Father withdrew from Him on the Cross).

 

No, it wouldn't. As you have demonstrated, nowhere in Scripture is this stated. It is, however, your position. If, however, I've missed the verse then just state it. Where does it say this in Scripture? What you keep doing is telling me what you think Jesus and Paul thought, or giving me a verse of Scripture and saying something totally separate from the verse.

But now that we have clarified that I understand your theory, let's move on. Can you answer the question?

Also, I am willing to provide a passage for you as well. Just ask. Iron sharpening iron.

 

Again, I know your tradition. I am asking for Scripture. Type it out and put in bold where it actually states what you claim to be true.

 

Again, you saying it does not make it so.

Please provide the passage and put in bold where Scripture actually states to us what you have posted.

Thanks.

 

Sounds interesting. I don't know much of the Reformation in England.

 

The issue is that it's not plainly stated. Others through our history have, in fact, come away with entirely different interpretations. They were no less scholarly, intelligent, or Christian than those who walk away seeing PSA. So the difference is not one party ignoring Scripture, but instead how we interpret what we are reading.

That said, I look forward to your presentation.

 

I agree that both early Christians all the way to Luther believed that there was substitution to the atonement. Even the theology of men like Martyr, who held to an atonement for humanity as a whole, held aspects of substitutionary atonement. Scripture tells us - the godly for the ungodly, the righteous for the unrighteous.

What you claimed was much more specific. You claimed that Jesus experienced the separation and wrath of God that the lost would experience at Judgment because God's wrath had to be poured out on sin. And then you claimed that this was plainly stated in Scripture. So I asked you to provide the verses and put in bold where your theory is plainly stated.

Have you found a verse yet?