Hypostatic union

[agedman]

1God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. 3And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power.

This is one of three passages that actually use the word (hupostasis) in them.

What is His nature?

 

[HankD]

1God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. 3And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power.

This is one of three passages that actually use the word (hupostasis) in them.

What is His nature?

Actually it's 5 and once in the LXX.

2 Corinthians 9:4 μή πως ἐὰν ἔλθωσιν σὺν ἐμοὶ Μακεδόνες καὶ εὕρωσιν ὑμᾶς ἀπαρασκευάστους καταισχυνθῶμεν ἡμεῖς ἵνα μὴ λέγω ὑμεῖς ἐν τῇ ὑποστάσει ταύτῃ

2 Corinthians 11:17 ὃ λαλῶ οὐ κατὰ κύριον λαλῶ ἀλλ’ ὡς ἐν ἀφροσύνῃ ἐν ταύτῃ τῇ ὑποστάσει τῆς καυχήσεως

Hebrews 1:3 ὃς ὢν ἀπαύγασμα τῆς δόξης καὶ χαρακτὴρ τῆς ὑποστάσεως αὐτοῦ φέρων τε τὰ πάντα τῷ ῥήματι τῆς δυνάμεως αὐτοῦ καθαρισμὸν τῶν ἁμαρτιῶν ποιησάμενος ἐκάθισεν ἐν δεξιᾷ τῆς μεγαλωσύνης ἐν ὑψηλοῖς

Hebrews 3:14 14 μέτοχοι γὰρ τοῦ Χριστοῦ γεγόναμεν ἐάνπερ τὴν ἀρχὴν τῆς ὑποστάσεως μέχρι τέλους βεβαίαν κατάσχωμεν

Hebrews 11:1 ἔστιν δὲ πίστις ἐλπιζομένων ὑπόστασις πραγμάτων ἔλεγχος οὐ βλεπομένων

Hebrews 1 1 - 4 is the prologue to the Book of Hebrews.

Emboldened is the RSV translation of hupostasis

RSV Hebrews 1:1 In many and various ways God spoke of old to our fathers by the prophets;
2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.
3 He reflects the glory of God and bears the very stamp of his nature, upholding the universe by his word of power. When he had made purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
4 having become as much superior to angels as the name he has obtained is more excellent than theirs.

Which is giving credence to His deity of His God-man essential being (persona) or karakter (χαρακτὴρ) in Hebrews 1:3..
His humanity part of the hypostatic union is shown in the following::

Hebrews 2
5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.
6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?
7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
...
16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

KTDNT - Essence.

HankD

 

[Yeshua1]

1God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. 3And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power.

This is one of three passages that actually use the word (hupostasis) in them.

What is His nature?

Fully God, and Full sinless Humanity!

 

[TCassidy]

Jesus has two complete natures: one fully human and one fully divine. The doctrine of the hypostatic union is important in that these two natures are united in one person in the God-man. Jesus is not two persons. The human Jesus and the Divine Christ. He is one person. The hypostatic union is the joining of the divine and the human in the one person of Jesus. The One God-Man. Jesus is God in His relation to men and He is man in His relation to God. He is the perfect intermediary between God and man.

 

[agedman]

Actually it's 5 and once in the LXX.

2 Corinthians 9:4 μή πως ἐὰν ἔλθωσιν σὺν ἐμοὶ Μακεδόνες καὶ εὕρωσιν ὑμᾶς ἀπαρασκευάστους καταισχυνθῶμεν ἡμεῖς ἵνα μὴ λέγω ὑμεῖς ἐν τῇ ὑποστάσει ταύτῃ

2 Corinthians 11:17 ὃ λαλῶ οὐ κατὰ κύριον λαλῶ ἀλλ’ ὡς ἐν ἀφροσύνῃ ἐν ταύτῃ τῇ ὑποστάσει τῆς καυχήσεως

Hebrews 1:3 ὃς ὢν ἀπαύγασμα τῆς δόξης καὶ χαρακτὴρ τῆς ὑποστάσεως αὐτοῦ φέρων τε τὰ πάντα τῷ ῥήματι τῆς δυνάμεως αὐτοῦ καθαρισμὸν τῶν ἁμαρτιῶν ποιησάμενος ἐκάθισεν ἐν δεξιᾷ τῆς μεγαλωσύνης ἐν ὑψηλοῖς

Hebrews 3:14 14 μέτοχοι γὰρ τοῦ Χριστοῦ γεγόναμεν ἐάνπερ τὴν ἀρχὴν τῆς ὑποστάσεως μέχρι τέλους βεβαίαν κατάσχωμεν

Hebrews 11:1 ἔστιν δὲ πίστις ἐλπιζομένων ὑπόστασις πραγμάτων ἔλεγχος οὐ βλεπομένων

Hebrews 1 1 - 4 is the prologue to the Book of Hebrews.

Emboldened is the RSV translation of hupostasis

RSV Hebrews 1:1 In many and various ways God spoke of old to our fathers by the prophets;
2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.
3 He reflects the glory of God and bears the very stamp of his nature, upholding the universe by his word of power. When he had made purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
4 having become as much superior to angels as the name he has obtained is more excellent than theirs.

Which is giving credence to His deity of His God-man essential being (persona) or karakter (χαρακτὴρ) in Hebrews 1:3..
His humanity part of the hypostatic union is shown in the following::

Hebrews 2
5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.
6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?
7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
...
16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

KTDNT - Essence.

HankD

Not to strain my language skills, but for clarification and agreement.

ὑποστάσεως (of His nature, substance, person-hood) has two passages of Hebrews (the one posted) which expresses specifically the nature of Christ. (Hebrews 1:3) and the one in 3:14 which is actually used in a manner of firm assurance and not of nature.

Corinthians uses ὑποστάσει in the expression of having confidence.

Hebrews also used ὑπόστασις when expressing the definition of faith.

Alright, now that that is settled, on to the OP.

 

[agedman]

Jesus has two complete natures: one fully human and one fully divine. The doctrine of the hypostatic union is important in that these two natures are united in one person in the God-man. Jesus is not two persons. The human Jesus and the Divine Christ. He is one person. The hypostatic union is the joining of the divine and the human in the one person of Jesus. The One God-Man. Jesus is God in His relation to men and He is man in His relation to God. He is the perfect intermediary between God and man.

Dragging the dust off my brain, there was a man (or thinking) that patterned a line of concerning the birth that was problematic back in the early church.

The idea he (or the group) formulated was that because God is eternal and cannot die, He could not be "born" either, but in some manner was in control, or took over that born of the flesh.

Another line (similarly) focused upon the baptism of Christ being the time God took complete control of the flesh.

Just so you know, I did not partake in the poll, so the voting cannot be assigned to my own thinking at this time. I will make my own choice known at a later point in the thread.

 

[TCassidy]

Dragging the dust off my brain, there was a man (or thinking) that patterned a line of concerning the birth that was problematic back in the early church.

The idea he (or the group) formulated was that because God is eternal and cannot die, He could not be "born" either, but in some manner was in control, or took over that born of the flesh.

Another line (similarly) focused upon the baptism of Christ being the time God took complete control of the flesh.

Just so you know, I did not partake in the poll, so the voting cannot be assigned to my own thinking at this time. I will make my own choice known at a later point in the thread.

The heresy of Adoptionism, condemned by the First Council of Nicaea in 325 AD.

 

[Yeshua1]

The heresy of Adoptionism, condemned by the First Council of Nicaea in 325 AD.

And later on resurrected by groups such as the Way.....

 

[Yeshua1]

Jesus has two complete natures: one fully human and one fully divine. The doctrine of the hypostatic union is important in that these two natures are united in one person in the God-man. Jesus is not two persons. The human Jesus and the Divine Christ. He is one person. The hypostatic union is the joining of the divine and the human in the one person of Jesus. The One God-Man. Jesus is God in His relation to men and He is man in His relation to God. He is the perfect intermediary between God and man.

Many seem to confuse this doctrine, as they seem to have Jesus almost like a mixture of the 2 natures, or else he keep bouncing back and forth within his natures.

 

[agedman]

Many seem to confuse this doctrine, as they seem to have Jesus almost like a mixture of the 2 natures, or else he keep bouncing back and forth within his natures.

Perhaps this is displayed when BB members express that surely the Lord must have experienced blisters on His feet, stubbed His toe, had sore muscles, upset stomach... or some other phenomena of human frailty.

More often some express that He had limited knowledge of the hearts of the people, or in some manner a hindrance in His authority and ability to accomplish the will of the Father.

It is seen in how one responds to the typical Cal/Arm arguments, too.

 

[agedman]

I noticed that a vote was for "other."

Not to put that person in a problem, but merely to ask, "What other?"

 

[percho]

Jesus has two complete natures: one fully human and one fully divine. The doctrine of the hypostatic union is important in that these two natures are united in one person in the God-man. Jesus is not two persons. The human Jesus and the Divine Christ. He is one person. The hypostatic union is the joining of the divine and the human in the one person of Jesus. The One God-Man. Jesus is God in His relation to men and He is man in His relation to God. He is the perfect intermediary between God and man.

Did the following have anything to do with the hypostatic union? - But while he thought about these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. Matt 1:20 Did that actually take place? Conception of something of Mary?

How are we to understand M 1:20 esp relative to Mary and the Son of God?

Also what was self emptied, relative to hypostatic union?

I have yet to vote also.

 

[percho]

Did the following have anything to do with the hypostatic union? - But while he thought about these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. Matt 1:20 Did that actually take place? Conception of something of Mary?

How are we to understand M 1:20 esp relative to Mary and the Son of God?

Also what was self emptied, relative to hypostatic union?

I have yet to vote also.

While I am asking. Is the word Son in Heb 1:2 and the Word made flesh of John 1:14 relative to Matt 1:25?

 

[Yeshua1]

Perhaps this is displayed when BB members express that surely the Lord must have experienced blisters on His feet, stubbed His toe, had sore muscles, upset stomach... or some other phenomena of human frailty.

More often some express that He had limited knowledge of the hearts of the people, or in some manner a hindrance in His authority and ability to accomplish the will of the Father.

It is seen in how one responds to the typical Cal/Arm arguments, too.

he never ceased being God, did not lay aside those attributes, but did lay aside him using them, and was fully Human, so did accept those physical limitations!

 

[agedman]

he never ceased being God, did not lay aside those attributes, but did lay aside him using them, and was fully Human, so did accept those physical limitations!

He "lay aside" what attributes?

I think you are referring to Philippians 2.

However, the context focus is the believer thinking of himself as having a certain station or privilege. The example is that of Christ not living and presenting Himself as privileged by station, but submitted to the Cross.

I don't see evidence in the passage that He "lay aside" any attributes.

 

[Yeshua1]

He "lay aside" what attributes?

I think you are referring to Philippians 2.

However, the context focus is the believer thinking of himself as having a certain station or privilege. The example is that of Christ not living and presenting Himself as privileged by station, but submitted to the Cross.

I don't see evidence in the passage that He "lay aside" any attributes.

I said that He did NOT lay aside any attributes of being still God, but he did chose to operate as a Man while here.

 

[Covenanter]

The OP quiz is not well expressed - I voted 'other' - 2nd voter.



The KJV translates Strong's G5287 in the following manner: confidence (2x), confident (1x), person (1x), substance (1x).

Only "person" is relevant to the hypostatic union in Hebrews 1

1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. NKJV

Other translations use - being, nature, character, essence, substance - sometimes in paraphrase. The basic meaning is under/standing as in foundation.

Thinking aloud .....

Jesus, the eternal Son of God, Jehovah, God the Son, at his incarnation took on the form & nature of man, yet without our sinful nature. Perfect God & perfect man. He lived a sinless life in perfect obedience to the OC Law & died as man & for man.

He rose from the dead & showed himself alive with a human body that had remarkable properties – dehydrated & deficient in blood, invisible until suddenly appearing in locked rooms, he could handle food & eat, his wounds could be touched & felt, disappearing from a dining room, ascending through the clouds. His resurrection body was no normal physical body containing two complete natures.

In his earthly life he fasted 40 days, & walked on water, & never ceased to uphold all things, he could heal the sick without seeing or touching, & raise the dead with a word.

I do not believe that his hypostatic being requires a physical body - our humanness is distinct from our physical being, otherwise we would be animals. Our humanness is our spiritual nature. When our bodies die, our humanness becomes perfect in its spiritual form. The resurrection is a completeness, but doesn't make us more human.

I could tick - two eternally perfect natures, divine & human, in one person.

I hope people will now tick 'other'.

 

[agedman]

The OP quiz is not well expressed - I voted 'other' - 2nd voter.



The KJV translates Strong's G5287 in the following manner: confidence (2x), confident (1x), person (1x), substance (1x).

Only "person" is relevant to the hypostatic union in Hebrews 1

1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. NKJV

Other translations use - being, nature, character, essence, substance - sometimes in paraphrase. The basic meaning is under/standing as in foundation.

Thinking aloud .....

Jesus, the eternal Son of God, Jehovah, God the Son, at his incarnation took on the form & nature of man, yet without our sinful nature. Perfect God & perfect man. He lived a sinless life in perfect obedience to the OC Law & died as man & for man.

He rose from the dead & showed himself alive with a human body that had remarkable properties – dehydrated & deficient in blood, invisible until suddenly appearing in locked rooms, he could handle food & eat, his wounds could be touched & felt, disappearing from a dining room, ascending through the clouds. His resurrection body was no normal physical body containing two complete natures.

In his earthly life he fasted 40 days, & walked on water, & never ceased to uphold all things, he could heal the sick without seeing or touching, & raise the dead with a word.

I do not believe that his hypostatic being requires a physical body - our humanness is distinct from our physical being, otherwise we would be animals. Our humanness is our spiritual nature. When our bodies die, our humanness becomes perfect in its spiritual form. The resurrection is a completeness, but doesn't make us more human.

I could tick - two eternally perfect natures, divine & human, in one person.

I hope people will now tick 'other'.

I would like to offer just a bit different picture to your thinking, to see if it is agreeable to you.

The KJV does ok with what they had, but the NASB gives that passage a clearer flow of the statement.

1God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. 3And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they.​

When Christ told the desciples “if you have seen me, you have seen the Father,” it wasn’t that they looked personally at the Father, but the exact representation of the Father. The Hebrews passage gives a list (so to speak) of the attributes of the Father represented in the Son.

The writer of Hebrews is very careful to show the eternal aspect of the Son, yet also give positional aspect as expressed in the “name” being exalted above even the angels.

When Marry was given the name for the child, it was a human name. The human name now above all names. “That at the name of Jesus, every knee shall bow.”

Therefore hypostatic must have a human form, a human body that can be touched, felt, seen, bowed before, and still bears the marks of the crucifixion.

The believers are like Christ in that we are never body less. But when she’d of the mortal are clothed in the immortal.

Unlike The Father, who is Spirit.

This is important because on the Cross, Christ gave His Spirit into the Father’s care (using human imagery) His body dying. Unlike the believers spirit, being unshackled from the dead body is given that new body, the Spirit of Christ raised Him from the dead in the same body.

All the attributes Christ had before the crucifixion he had after the crucifixion.

The only attribute left then to be exalted was His name.

 

[Covenanter]

I would like to offer just a bit different picture to your thinking, to see if it is agreeable to you.

The KJV does ok with what they had, but the NASB gives that passage a clearer flow of the statement.

1God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. 3And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they.​

When Christ told the desciples “if you have seen me, you have seen the Father,” it wasn’t that they looked personally at the Father, but the exact representation of the Father. The Hebrews passage gives a list (so to speak) of the attributes of the Father represented in the Son.

The writer of Hebrews is very careful to show the eternal aspect of the Son, yet also give positional aspect as expressed in the “name” being exalted above even the angels.

When Marry was given the name for the child, it was a human name. The human name now above all names. “That at the name of Jesus, every knee shall bow.”

Therefore hypostatic must have a human form, a human body that can be touched, felt, seen, bowed before, and still bears the marks of the crucifixion.

The believers are like Christ in that we are never body less. But when she’d of the mortal are clothed in the immortal.

Unlike The Father, who is Spirit.

This is important because on the Cross, Christ gave His Spirit into the Father’s care (using human imagery) His body dying. Unlike the believers spirit, being unshackled from the dead body is given that new body, the Spirit of Christ raised Him from the dead in the same body.

All the attributes Christ had before the crucifixion he had after the crucifixion.

The only attribute left then to be exalted was His name.

NASB - And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, ​

Who is 'He' & 'His' ?
IMO - And the Son is the radiance of His Father's glory and the exact representation of His Father's nature,

the exact representation of His Father's hypostasis,

How does that impact on the "hypostatic union" ?

 

[Covenanter]

No-one changed their vote to 'other' ?

Jesus appeared in human form before his incarnation -
.e.g as Melchizedek, Gen. 14, the LORD, God most high.

That was a physical presence, where he handled food & wine, blessed Abram, & received the spoils.

Hebrews has a lot to say about his eternal priesthood.

7:1 For this Melchizedek, king of Salem, priest of the Most High God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings and blessed him, 2 to whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all, first being translated “king of righteousness,” and then also king of Salem, meaning “king of peace,” 3 without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, remains a priest continually.
​

How does that impact on the "hypostatic union" ?