Who did He say it to and what kind of judgement were they making?
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Hermeneutical Principle in Interpreting Scripture
- Thread starter Reformed
- Start date
- Status
Who did He say it to and what kind of judgement were they making?
God already judges us as all being guilty in Adam, as sinners, as deserving to go to Hell, and those who reject Jesus stay under that condemnation, correct?
We are ALL already commended if not in Christ now, its just that from out point of view has not happened as of yet!
Negative.
All scripture says Judgment happens on Judgement Day. Jesus Christ did not come to judge.
In fact there is more scripture to suppose the equivalent of "having charges dropped" rather then "not guilty"
19namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
I gave a simple challenge and it sounds like you are afraid of it.
Here it is again:
When Jesus says " DO NOT JUDGE, DO NOT CONDEMN" Can you please give me an example of that?
Jesus stopped a woman from being stone, caught in the ACT, who had a LESSER judgement of DESERVING to be stoned. Deserving hell is a lot worst.
The scriptures state that all who reject Jesus stand comdemned/judged right now, correct?
ALL who trust in ANYTHING other than the person of Jesus death as atonement for their sins stand condemned, correct?
No it says anyone who rejects Jesus already condemn themselves, And that Jesus Christ has not judged or condemned anyone.
37“Do not judge, and you will not be judged; and do not condemn, and you will not be condemned; pardon, and you will be pardoned.
If the scriptures supported your position it would be easy to cite scripture. This is why I am easily citing scripture.
Luke 5
30The Pharisees and their scribes began grumbling at His disciples, saying, “Why do you eat and drink with the tax collectors and sinners?” 31And Jesus answered and said to them, “It is not those who are well who need a physician, but those who are sick. 32“I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance.”
Do the sick deserve a bullet to the head? No they don't.
Here are the chosen elect self-righteous pharisees "hey these people don't deserve Jesus".
Who do you think they most sound like? Me or you? No Jesus = hell.
NONE deserve Jesus as their Lord, ALL of us do deserve Hell and judgement!
The Pharisees agree with you. And still trying to kill Jesus today no doubt.
Utilyan, Here is what Jesus stated on the matter, John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. From Mounce reverse Interlinear,
Then we see this, 1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Those who are spiritually dead that is the natural man cannot understand the things of the Spirit because they are discerned by Spiritual means. The natural man separated from Spiritual knowledge, receives Christ and becomes Spiritually alive.
Ephesians 2 makes it clear that we were all once Spiritually dead, verse 1 states, And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; by His Grace that is His free gift to all who as John 3:18 states believe on the Son, Jesus are no longer condemned but as we see in verse 5 of Ephesians 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
We who have Christ in our lives have been Quickened that is made alive. Since we were already physically alive we must have been dead in another way, that is Spiritually Dead in trespasses and sins.
Then we see this, 1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Those who are spiritually dead that is the natural man cannot understand the things of the Spirit because they are discerned by Spiritual means. The natural man separated from Spiritual knowledge, receives Christ and becomes Spiritually alive.
Ephesians 2 makes it clear that we were all once Spiritually dead, verse 1 states, And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; by His Grace that is His free gift to all who as John 3:18 states believe on the Son, Jesus are no longer condemned but as we see in verse 5 of Ephesians 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
We who have Christ in our lives have been Quickened that is made alive. Since we were already physically alive we must have been dead in another way, that is Spiritually Dead in trespasses and sins.
Utilyan, Here is what Jesus stated on the matter, John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. From Mounce reverse Interlinear,
Then we see this, 1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Those who are spiritually dead that is the natural man cannot understand the things of the Spirit because they are discerned by Spiritual means. The natural man separated from Spiritual knowledge, receives Christ and becomes Spiritually alive.
Ephesians 2 makes it clear that we were all once Spiritually dead, verse 1 states, And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; by His Grace that is His free gift to all who as John 3:18 states believe on the Son, Jesus are no longer condemned but as we see in verse 5 of Ephesians 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
Am I the only one here with the capacity to see verse 17? IF Jesus is not the one condemning in verse 18 they are condemning themselves which counts as trash because only Jesus can make the call.
17“For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18“He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Ephesians says US and YOU. It also states a spirit at work with those who disobey,
What job does the devil have with someone who is "spiritually dead"?
If my job is to make you fall and you are lying on the ground next to a ladder with no arms and legs, what the heck am I suppose to do?
You are attributed divine qualities to mankind. As if God is only 10 or 20% integral to the existence of mankind. Jesus Christ is a man.
Without God I could never love my Mom and tell her I love her, This is 100% true.
Without God I could never jump in the mud and roll around it, while i eat chocolate cake, smoking a cigarette, listening to opera(barber of Seville).
I actually have living blood cells that need to go one way, They go i haven't a clue how to do that. I don't even know how to make a fist, but i can make a fist.
So when someone tells me I have absolutely no capacity to do Good, my answer is where is my capacity to do ANYTHING AT ALL?
My entire life has required God.
A Kleptomaniac
If you had a child who steals things no matter what you would jail them for life?
And please don't give the me "oh real life stuff, we're just talking religion" that I've heard form others. As if the means of a mental condition doesn't accomplish the obvious.
Jesus Christ is clear not to judge or condemn, I've asked repeatedly to give an example of this sin. No one gives an example because it would not hold a candle to believing all people unholy, unclean and deserving hell.
Verse 17 the point was not that Jesus didn't condemn but that He came to save, He came not to condemn but to save. Those who believe are not judged as sinners not condemned but those who continue to believe not continue to be condemned by God the Father. If they believe God's judgment upon them ceases if they remain in the state of unbelief then they remain condemned. Their condemnation will be fulfilled at the end of the Kingdom age when they face Christ at the Great White Throne.
Utilyan asked "What job does the devil have with someone who is "spiritually dead"? To continue to deceive them to keep them separated from God. Matthew 13:
4 And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:
5 Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:
6 And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.
7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:
All these show satan and his demon angels working to keep the seed from growing into salvation for those who are spiritually separated from God that is Spiritually dead in Trespasses and sin. Per Thayer the meaning of Spiritual death is "destitute of life that reconizes and is devoted to God, because given up to trespasses and sins."
Not destitute of physical life but Spiritual life because they are natural men and satan fights to keep the seed from growing into salvation.
4 And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:
5 Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:
6 And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.
7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:
All these show satan and his demon angels working to keep the seed from growing into salvation for those who are spiritually separated from God that is Spiritually dead in Trespasses and sin. Per Thayer the meaning of Spiritual death is "destitute of life that reconizes and is devoted to God, because given up to trespasses and sins."
Not destitute of physical life but Spiritual life because they are natural men and satan fights to keep the seed from growing into salvation.
Last edited:
Ask Isaiah if he served hell or not, or how about Apostle paul?
"All these show satan and his demon angels working to keep the seed from growing into salvation for those who are spiritually separated from God that is Spiritually dead in Trespasses and sin. "
How? If you are already TOTALLY DEPRAVED there is nothing there left for the Devil to toast.
Lets say the Devil doesn't touch the guy and neither does God. He goes to hell, he is "spiritually dead".
A seed from growing into salvation? seriously? One moment ago we said they have no capacity, they are already UNHOLY and UNCLEAN and now your saying well the devil is there to prevent them.
NO no no no..... If they really unholy and unclean then they are already in league with the devil.
Your whole argument is falling apart here.
As God commands : CALL no man UNHOLY or UNCLEAN.
The only reason the devil has a job is because people do have the capacity to do what is right.
Wouldn't it just be easier if you had a verse where God says go ahead and judge everyone?
The reason you don't is judging others is a sin.
Now I made this challenge repeatedly and it frightens people,
Give me an example of this sin Jesus is talking about DO NOT JUDGE OTHERS, DO NOT CONDEMN OTHERS.
Show me one example of wrongful judgement of others that's worst then already claiming they are unholy and unclean.
I feel like I'm watching a dog chase his own tail. This question is not a hard question, please.
Noone said they had no capacity to be saved, Mark 8:4 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. Do you see Jesus's words whosoever will come, not only those HE has chosen or those HE gave some capacity, but whosoever will come. Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. The Spirit that is the Holy Spirit says COME, that is the effectual calling of Holy Spirit in conviction of all. The church that we as believers tell others of Christ and say come, all can come.
Jesus as God knew the hearts knowing the hearts as to whether they were or were not condemned, He said those who believe not are condemned already.
Whosoever will be willing to come to Jesus to be saved is due to the election of God towards them in Christ.
Mark 14:
62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
63 Then the high priest rent his clothes, and saith, What need we any further witnesses?
64 Ye have heard the blasphemy: what think ye? And they all condemned him to be guilty of death.
Seems they judged Jesus guilty of Blasphemy when in truth He wasn't guilty. What did Jesus judge them?
We see Jesus judging these in Matthew 12:34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh. They were judged, condemned by Jesus of being evil. Yet if they had believed on Him like Joseph of Arimathaea or Nicodemus. Matthew 22:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? Again we see Jesus condemnation of them His judgement of them as serpents, vipers the question how can ye escape th damnation of hell? They were already condemned but had they believed they would no longer be condemned.
Romans 5:16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
We are all condemned by the act of one namely Adam who passes to each human born Spiritual death. But we too acan all be saved by one Jesus, Romans 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Judgement came because of Adam sin, The Righteousness of one brings men to justification before God. We are condemned for the sin of unbelief once we realize right from wrong and all must choose for Christ, those who haven't chosen for Christ according to Jesus and Paul are condemned already because of Adam's fall and bringing all born of the seed of man into a state of Spiritual death.
Show me one example of wrongful judgement of others that's worst then already claiming they are unholy and unclean.
I feel like I'm watching a dog chase his own tail. This question is not a hard question, please.
We can cue the twilight zone music.
You're oh so close here...just not quite there...yet. I will be praying.
- Status