Ten doctrines which render Rome outside of Christ

[Squire Robertsson]

Just to throw some gasoline on the fire.

Can Roman Catholicism be Considered Christianity?

 

[BobRyan]

from "500 years Protesting WHAT?"

=====================================

Since there is at least some focus this month on the reformation, the protestant reformation and how wide the GAP is between protestant doctrine and Catholicism - lets work out some of the details.

While Luther may have "started" with 95 objections to selling indulgences.. that is not the sum total of the "gap" between protestantism and catholicism.

Foundational in Protestantism is this - (at the very least).

1. Sola Scriptura - Acts 17:11 (testing all doctrine and practice against the standard of the Bible instead of Bible+traditions-of-men). Col 2:22 "—in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men"

2. Grace alone (mankind is saved by grace through faith - Ephesians 2) not saved by powers of sacrament or powers in a "rite" or ritual plus ...

3. Faith alone - justified by faith alone - meaning that when the lost person comes to Christ - they are saved not on the basis of good works done as a lost person - but saved by faith alone.

4. Christ alone - "there is no OTHER name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved" -- so then no earthly priest or pope stands between us and Christ who is the "one mediator between God and man" 1 Tim 2:5-6

We come boldly to the throne of grace - directly to God in prayer. No earthly mediator or Pope between.

(And of course both sides agree that all the glory goes to God alone for the plan of salvation)

===============================================

I am not sure that whatever meetings are going on this month and next .. in Germany are going to find agreement on the points listed above.

In addition there is in the "gap" between the Bible and catholicism

1. Prayers to the dead -- called "the Dead in Christ" in 1Thess 4.
2. Claims to confect the "body, blood,soul and divinity of Christ in the mass" - by contrast Christ was offered up "once for all" Hebrews 10 and no earthly priest has been given the powers to confect the "body, blood,soul and divinity of Christ in the mass"
3. The "doctrine of discovery" regarding what Catholics are allowed to do to the natives of newly discovered lands in cases where those natives refuse to convert to Catholicism
4. Infallibility of Catholic church councils and popes.
5. Authorizing violence against Christians for "thought crimes" for doctrinal differences with the Papacy.
6. Editing the Sabbath Commandment to point it to week-day-1
7. Apocryphal books injected into the Bible canon -- (books that even Jerome declared were not legitmately part of the Canon of scripture)
8. The Pope's claim to in any way be the head or leader of any denomination on earth - other than his own denomination - the Roman Catholic Church.
9. Purgatory -- does not exist according to the Bible but the RCC promotes it anyway.
10. Praying to angels
11. Bowing down before images to pray to and to promise to serve those whom they represent.
12. The idea that Catholic Church tradition holds equal weight to scripture or that an understanding of scripture that does not agree with the RCC is by definition incorrect.
13. Monastic celibate orders that appear to have promoted certain forms of sin at some level within the group.
14. "power" in the bishop or the priest to give sacraments power to mark the soul, or effect the New Birth, or forgive sins.. etc.

I am probably missing a few of the topics in "the gap" between Catholicism and Protestantism
==================================

So then what are the odds that the folks in Germany are ever going to be able to close the gap on such key doctrinal points of difference?

 

[Yeshua1]

Just to throw some gasoline on the fire.

Can Roman Catholicism be Considered Christianity?

NOT the Christianity that preaches the real Gospel, as the Church of Rome teaches and promotes a Gospel of grace and good works mixed, perverting the real message of the Cross!

 

[Adonia]

The worst thing you folks do is deny the Real Presence of Jesus Christ in the Holy Eucharist. Even the Grand Poobah protestor himself, that renegade priest Martin Luther, dared not deny this reality. At some point all of you will be held to account for this terrible mistake of yours which results from you misinterpretation of the Holy Scriptures. I will pray that Almighty God will have mercy on you for your false doctrine.

 

[Adonia]

NOT the Christianity that preaches the real Gospel, as the Church of Rome teaches and promotes a Gospel of grace and good works mixed, perverting the real message of the Cross!

This continuing falsehood from you about us is beneath you, a person who claims to be a Christian. This is bearing false witness, a sinful behavior on your part and for your own salvation you should stop it.

 

[Adonia]

from "500 years Protesting WHAT?"

=====================================

Since there is at least some focus this month on the reformation, the protestant reformation and how wide the GAP is between protestant doctrine and Catholicism - lets work out some of the details.

While Luther may have "started" with 95 objections to selling indulgences.. that is not the sum total of the "gap" between protestantism and catholicism.

Foundational in Protestantism is this - (at the very least).

1. Sola Scriptura - Acts 17:11 (testing all doctrine and practice against the standard of the Bible instead of Bible+traditions-of-men). Col 2:22 "—in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men"

2. Grace alone (mankind is saved by grace through faith - Ephesians 2) not saved by powers of sacrament or powers in a "rite" or ritual plus ...

3. Faith alone - justified by faith alone - meaning that when the lost person comes to Christ - they are saved not on the basis of good works done as a lost person - but saved by faith alone.

4. Christ alone - "there is no OTHER name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved" -- so then no earthly priest or pope stands between us and Christ who is the "one mediator between God and man" 1 Tim 2:5-6

We come boldly to the throne of grace - directly to God in prayer. No earthly mediator or Pope between.

(And of course both sides agree that all the glory goes to God alone for the plan of salvation)

===============================================

I am not sure that whatever meetings are going on this month and next .. in Germany are going to find agreement on the points listed above.

In addition there is in the "gap" between the Bible and catholicism

1. Prayers to the dead -- called "the Dead in Christ" in 1Thess 4.
2. Claims to confect the "body, blood,soul and divinity of Christ in the mass" - by contrast Christ was offered up "once for all" Hebrews 10 and no earthly priest has been given the powers to confect the "body, blood,soul and divinity of Christ in the mass"
3. The "doctrine of discovery" regarding what Catholics are allowed to do to the natives of newly discovered lands in cases where those natives refuse to convert to Catholicism
4. Infallibility of Catholic church councils and popes.
5. Authorizing violence against Christians for "thought crimes" for doctrinal differences with the Papacy.
6. Editing the Sabbath Commandment to point it to week-day-1
7. Apocryphal books injected into the Bible canon -- (books that even Jerome declared were not legitmately part of the Canon of scripture)
8. The Pope's claim to in any way be the head or leader of any denomination on earth - other than his own denomination - the Roman Catholic Church.
9. Purgatory -- does not exist according to the Bible but the RCC promotes it anyway.
10. Praying to angels
11. Bowing down before images to pray to and to promise to serve those whom they represent.
12. The idea that Catholic Church tradition holds equal weight to scripture or that an understanding of scripture that does not agree with the RCC is by definition incorrect.
13. Monastic celibate orders that appear to have promoted certain forms of sin at some level within the group.
14. "power" in the bishop or the priest to give sacraments power to mark the soul, or effect the New Birth, or forgive sins.. etc.

I am probably missing a few of the topics in "the gap" between Catholicism and Protestantism
==================================

So then what are the odds that the folks in Germany are ever going to be able to close the gap on such key doctrinal points of difference?

Each one of your statements has been discussed and proven false in previous posts.

 

[Adonia]

Just to throw some gasoline on the fire.

Can Roman Catholicism be Considered Christianity?

Who gave this man named Eric Davis the authority to decide what is right as regards the correct form of Christianity? Just because he planted a church somewhere, yes, the Church of Eric Davis, is no reason to lend him any credence on anything, especially when it comes to determining the truth about orthodox Christianity and it's relation to following Jesus Christ, the person to whom we all look to as the Savior.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

Did you read the article? As for authority, it's called the principle of the priesthood of the Believer. He wrote out his opinion which others may or may not agree with. I happen to agree with him.

 

[Reformed]

The worst thing you folks do is deny the Real Presence of Jesus Christ in the Holy Eucharist.

Papists believe that the elements actually become the body and blood of Jesus Christ, not just a spiritual presence. Thus, they sacrifice Christ ever and anon. This is a violation of Hebrews 10:12.

 

[Adonia]

Papists believe that the elements actually become the body and blood of Jesus Christ, not just a spiritual presence. Thus, they sacrifice Christ ever and anon. This is a violation of Hebrews 10:12.

You do not know Catholic Doctrine. Christ has been sacrificed but once, the Mass is a re-presentation of that Sacrifice. What an unbelievable thing it is that time is transcended and we are there at the foot of the Cross as some of the first Christians were on that momentous day.

As for the Eucharist - outwardly they have the appearance of bread and wine, but intrinsically it contains His Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity. We believe Him when he said: "This is my Body; and "This is my Blood" - and you should too.

That is what was taught from the beginning - by Jesus, by His Apostles, by the Early Church Fathers, and by the Christian Church as a whole. Our Eastern Orthodox brothers believe this, as did Martin Luther. Everyone but you folks.

 

[BobRyan]

The worst thing you folks do is deny the Real Presence of Jesus Christ in the Holy Eucharist. Even the Grand Poobah protestor himself, that renegade priest Martin Luther, dared not deny this reality. At some point all of you will be held to account for this terrible mistake of yours which results from you misinterpretation of the Holy Scriptures. I will pray that Almighty God will have mercy on you for your false doctrine.

Why not prove your point by demonstrating something that you are saying "is actually true" -- from the Bible. Remember that simply "ranting" is not a proof of something good.

 

[BobRyan]

from "500 years Protesting WHAT?"

=====================================

Since there is at least some focus this month on the reformation, the protestant reformation and how wide the GAP is between protestant doctrine and Catholicism - lets work out some of the details.

While Luther may have "started" with 95 objections to selling indulgences.. that is not the sum total of the "gap" between protestantism and catholicism.

Foundational in Protestantism is this - (at the very least).

1. Sola Scriptura - Acts 17:11 (testing all doctrine and practice against the standard of the Bible instead of Bible+traditions-of-men). Col 2:22 "—in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men"

2. Grace alone (mankind is saved by grace through faith - Ephesians 2) not saved by powers of sacrament or powers in a "rite" or ritual plus ...

3. Faith alone - justified by faith alone - meaning that when the lost person comes to Christ - they are saved not on the basis of good works done as a lost person - but saved by faith alone.

4. Christ alone - "there is no OTHER name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved" -- so then no earthly priest or pope stands between us and Christ who is the "one mediator between God and man" 1 Tim 2:5-6

We come boldly to the throne of grace - directly to God in prayer. No earthly mediator or Pope between.

(And of course both sides agree that all the glory goes to God alone for the plan of salvation)

===============================================

I am not sure that whatever meetings are going on this month and next .. in Germany are going to find agreement on the points listed above.

In addition there is in the "gap" between the Bible and catholicism

1. Prayers to the dead -- called "the Dead in Christ" in 1Thess 4.
2. Claims to confect the "body, blood,soul and divinity of Christ in the mass" - by contrast Christ was offered up "once for all" Hebrews 10 and no earthly priest has been given the powers to confect the "body, blood,soul and divinity of Christ in the mass"
3. The "doctrine of discovery" regarding what Catholics are allowed to do to the natives of newly discovered lands in cases where those natives refuse to convert to Catholicism
4. Infallibility of Catholic church councils and popes.
5. Authorizing violence against Christians for "thought crimes" for doctrinal differences with the Papacy.
6. Editing the Sabbath Commandment to point it to week-day-1
7. Apocryphal books injected into the Bible canon -- (books that even Jerome declared were not legitmately part of the Canon of scripture)
8. The Pope's claim to in any way be the head or leader of any denomination on earth - other than his own denomination - the Roman Catholic Church.
9. Purgatory -- does not exist according to the Bible but the RCC promotes it anyway.
10. Praying to angels
11. Bowing down before images to pray to and to promise to serve those whom they represent.
12. The idea that Catholic Church tradition holds equal weight to scripture or that an understanding of scripture that does not agree with the RCC is by definition incorrect.
13. Monastic celibate orders that appear to have promoted certain forms of sin at some level within the group.
14. "power" in the bishop or the priest to give sacraments power to mark the soul, or effect the New Birth, or forgive sins.. etc.

I am probably missing a few of the topics in "the gap" between Catholicism and Protestantism
==================================

So then what are the odds that the folks in Germany are ever going to be able to close the gap on such key doctrinal points of difference?

Each one of your statements has been discussed and proven false in previous posts.

I like your optimism.

 

[BobRyan]

Papists believe that the elements actually become the body and blood of Jesus Christ, not just a spiritual presence. Thus, they sacrifice Christ ever and anon. This is a violation of Hebrews 10:12.

They claim that their Bishops - and therefore priests have the "powers" to "confect the body, blood, soul and divinity of Christ" in the mass.

Not a Bible claim - but certainly an amazing one.

 

[Adonia]

Did you read the article? As for authority, it's called the principle of the priesthood of the Believer. He wrote out his opinion which others may or may not agree with. I happen to agree with him.

Well good for you. Yes there is the universal priesthood of the believer, but not everyone runs out and starts his own church. You reject the Church here on earth that was placed in a position of authority, led by those men who were ordained from the Apostles (as what we orthodox believers call priests -ordained clergy) and Bishops.

This is not something that I just made up on the spur of the moment, but a truth that stands the test of the historical record. Before the Scriptures were even collated there was the Universal (Catholic) Christian Church - surely you know that - one authority to teach the faithful (as the Scriptures themselves tell us).

 

[Squire Robertsson]

As this is Baptist Board, I'd take care as to how I expressed my opinion.

Well good for you. Yes, there is the universal priesthood of the believer, but there is also the ordained priesthood. Once again, it is orthodoxy that teaches this, both of the East and the West, and somewhere along the line, some people strayed from this belief.

 

[Adonia]

They claim that their Bishops - and therefore priests have the "powers" to "confect the body, blood, soul and divinity of Christ" in the mass.

Not a Bible claim - but certainly an amazing one.

There was no New Testament Bible when this started, it is what it is. They have the AUTHORITY to consecrate the bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ from Jesus Christ Himself. "Do this...." He told them because "This is....." He said.

 

[Adonia]

As this is Baptist Board, I'd take care as to how I expressed my opinion.

I believe I am in the "Other Christian Denominations" section, so how have I erred? I have read disparaging comments against my faith tradition right here in these threads, with it being called "apostate" for example. Perhaps it was the "good for you" comment, if so I apologize.

 

[BobRyan]

There was no New Testament Bible when this started, it is what it is. They have the AUTHORITY to consecrate the bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ from Jesus Christ Himself. "Do this...." He told them because "This is....." He said.

Peter said they had NT scripture already - in 2Peter 3 -- before any RCC existed.
1 Thess 2 - Paul said the NT saints already accepted his teaching as the "Word of God".
Nobody in the NT wrote that they would have to wait 200 or 300 years for Catholics to come along and tell them what to read

 

[BobRyan]

Well good for you. Yes there is the universal priesthood of the believer, but not everyone runs out and starts his own church. You reject the Church here on earth that was placed in a position of authority, led by those men who were ordained from the Apostles (as what we orthodox believers call priests -ordained clergy) and Bishops.

This is not something that I just made up on the spur of the moment, but a truth that stands the test of the historical record. Before the Scriptures were even collated there was the Universal (Catholic) Christian Church - surely you know that - one authority to teach the faithful (as the Scriptures themselves tell us).

1. Hebrews 8 says of Christ "if He were on Earth - He would not be a priest at all" -- and Hebrews 7 points to the end of the earthly priesthood.

2. Paul said "after my departure... the RCC will come up".. ok just kidding

Acts 20
29 I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; 30 and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them. 31 Therefore be on the alert, remembering that night and day for a period of three years I did not cease to admonish each one with tears.

You claim that those outside the RCC are rejecting God's church - but many would argue based on Acts 20 and all the doctrinal errors found in the RCC - that it is the papacy that has rejected God's church. Making those claims 'does not prove them' - you need to show that the RCC is not in doctrinal error - via the actual Bible... just ranting about it wont prove anything here.

Be a bit more serious in your posts - so that they are compelling and give "food for thought".

 

[Adonia]

Peter said they had NT scripture already - in 2Peter 3 -- before any RCC existed.
1 Thess 2 - Paul said the NT saints already accepted his teaching as the "Word of God".
Nobody in the NT wrote that they would have to wait 200 or 300 years for Catholics to come along and tell them what to read

Yeah well, but that is what happened. it was the Church as a whole that decided what the completed version of the NT was to contain and it was the 4th century before that happened. The letters of St. Paul to the other "churches" was the central authority telling them what was the correct doctrine. You can try, but you cannot change the historical record of the Christian experience.