Theory of atonement, do you have one?

[JonC]

Isaiah 53 is the clearest explanation of the Pst in the OT, and Paul in Romans explains it even more fully!

If Isaiah 53 is the clearest passage in terms of stating that God was wrathful towards Christ then you definitely have problems.

Why can you not provide the verse and put in bold the words that state God was wrathful to Christ? Is it because it is your tradition and not Scripture.

 

[agedman]

Jesus did NOT owe anything to the father, but became our sin offering, and as such, God saw Him as us dieing for our sins.

However, does not (according to your scheme) present sin as demanding payment, that a real debt must be paid, that some exchange / transfer took place removing sin’s penalty and placing that upon Christ?

So, when Christ assumed the debt, then He became responsible to God for payment.

Who paid Christ’s debt?

Or, perhaps now, you have moved away from the “ransom theory” to that of some theory of redemption?

 

[Yeshua1]

If Isaiah 53 is the clearest passage in terms of stating that God was wrathful towards Christ then you definitely have problems.

Why can you not provide the verse and put in bold the words that state God was wrathful to Christ? Is it because it is your tradition and not Scripture.

It was God's pleasure to bruise/crush/kill off His chosen servant not showing to us God was indeed treating the Son as a sin bearer, and experiencing His wrath ?

 

[Yeshua1]

Jesus had no sin debt obligation to the Father, but he paid in full that due God for sinners that were to get saved!

God was not punishing Jesus at all for anything that he had done, but He was pouring out his divine wrath/punishment as a judgement against sin that Jesus took as the great sin bearer!

 

[JonC]

It was God's pleasure to bruise/crush/kill off His chosen servant not showing to us God was indeed treating the Son as a sin bearer, and experiencing His wrath ?

SCRIPTURE PLEASE

 

[JonC]

Jesus had no sin debt obligation to the Father, but he paid in full that due God for sinners that were to get saved!

God was not punishing Jesus at all for anything that he had done, but He was pouring out his divine wrath/punishment as a judgement against sin that Jesus took as the great sin bearer!

Again, your accounting system is not Scripture. Why should someone who takes Scripture literally adopt your additions? That's what you have to answer. You criticize others not for rejecting the Bible but for not accepting your extra-biblical explanations. You can't just explain away Scripture, brother. You can't just keep repeating your view as if it were Scripture and expect a literate person not to object.

Post the passage and put in bold the words proving your presuppositions. You can't because you are wrong here. Why you keep on is beyond me.

 

[Yeshua1]

Again, your accounting system is not Scripture. Why should someone who takes Scripture literally adopt your additions? That's what you have to answer. You criticize others not for rejecting the Bible but for not accepting your extra-biblical explanations. You can't just explain away Scripture, brother. You can't just keep repeating your view as if it were Scripture and expect a literate person not to object.

Post the passage and put in bold the words proving your presuppositions. You can't because you are wrong here. Why you keep on is beyond me.

I will keep oin stating that I agree on this with Calvin and Luther!
Why do you disagree with both of them?

 

[JonC]

I will keep oin stating that I agree on this with Calvin and Luther!
Why do you disagree with both of them?

I know you believe you agree with Calvin and Luther. And I respect that at least you know where you stand.

I agree with Scripture - that is my authority. Not Calvin and not Luther. When you ask me to explain my belief I will give you Scripture (and I can highlight in bold where my belief is stated). As I said, we will not come to an agreement because we hold different ideas about what constitutes authority for our belief. I hold to Scripture alone.

 

[Yeshua1]

I know you believe you agree with Calvin and Luther. And I respect that at least you know where you stand.

I agree with Scripture - that is my authority. Not Calvin and not Luther. When you ask me to explain my belief I will give you Scripture (and I can highlight in bold where my belief is stated). As I said, we will not come to an agreement because we hold different ideas about what constitutes authority for our belief. I hold to Scripture alone.

I hold to sola scriptura also, but think that the views regarding the atonement of Jesus as expressed by Both Calvin and Luther much better represents the biblical views than yours does!

 

[JonC]

I hold to sola scriptura also, but think that the views regarding the atonement of Jesus as expressed by Both Calvin and Luther much better represents the biblical views than yours does!

All I offered of my view was Scripture (without commentary, BTW), but you couldn't even find one passage that stated God was wrathful to Jesus. Instead you offered Calvin and Luther. So you are not being exactly honest here.

 

[JonC]

I hold to sola scriptura also, but think that the views regarding the atonement of Jesus as expressed by Both Calvin and Luther much better represents the biblical views than yours does!

Let me ask you this: when Scripture talks about God's Righteous One, His Holy One, His Anointed One, His Messiah, His Christ....Whom He will not abandon....to whom do you believe it is referring? Give a passave stating God was wrathful to Jesus

 

[TCassidy]

Whom He will not abandon.

"My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken me?"

 

[Yeshua1]

Let me ask you this: when Scripture talks about God's Righteous One, His Holy One, His Anointed One, His Messiah, His Christ....Whom He will not abandon....to whom do you believe it is referring? Give a passave stating God was wrathful to Jesus

You have to see that the wrath of God was NOT poured upon Jesus in His person alone, as he was the sinless One, but due to Him then becoming sin for our behalf, and that is what the Father poured his wraith out upon!

 

[Yeshua1]

"My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken me?"

I don't think that JonC sees that though as being a literal state of being forsaken!

 

[JonC]

"My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken me?"

To clarify, I was referring to Y1's theory of abandoning meaning a separation. I do believe God left Christ to the Cross to suffer and die (God did not rescue him from death but delivered Him out of it).

Do you believe God withdrew His presence rather than withheld deliverance?

 

[TCassidy]

Do you believe God withdrew His presence rather than withheld deliverance?

I believe God withdrew the perfect fellowship they had previously had until the sin debt was paid.

 

[JonC]

I believe God withdrew the perfect fellowship they had previously had until the sin debt was paid.

What does the "perfect fellowship" which God withdrew entail?

 

[TCassidy]

What does the "perfect fellowship" which God withdrew entail?

The Hypostasis of the Godhead.

 

[JonC]

I don't think that JonC sees that though as being a literal state of being forsaken!

I don't think that you understand that "forsaken" does not mean "separated from". "The Forsaken" by Tim Tzouliadis tells of Americans who immigrated to Russia during the 1930's. He considers them forsaken by America because our government did not make an effort to deliver them under Stalin's rein. It's not that our government put them there and abandoned them, but that we abandoned them in the sense we did not take them out of the situation).

I believe Jesus was literally forsaken. Scripture tells us that the Jews considered Jesus stricken, struck down by God and afflicted and they crucified Him. God forsook Him in that He did not deliver Christ from that situation but through it. And this is the hope we have in Christ - that God is faithful to the righteous (as Scripture says, regardless as to your theory).

 

[JonC]

The Hypostasis of the Godhead.

In such a way as to create a division between the persons of the Trinity? If so, a division in what? The divine nature, or will?

I understand what you are saying, but I do not understand how this would be manifested within the Godhead.