Free will and the gospel

[Van]

Scripture teaches total spiritual inability is false doctrine.

And repeating the falsehood that my view is fallen people "activate" salvation remains disgusting.

God and God alone saves us, 100% God, 0% human. But no doubt, rather than address total spiritual inability, you will continue to post change of subject falsehoods concerning man's role in salvation. As I said, disgusting. And not one Cal leaning poster has corrected your behavior.

 

[agedman]

Scripture teaches total spiritual inability is false doctrine.

And repeating the falsehood that my view is fallen people "activate" salvation remains disgusting.

God and God alone saves us, 100% God, 0% human. But no doubt, rather than address total spiritual inability, you will continue to post change of subject falsehoods concerning man's role in salvation. As I said, disgusting. And not one Cal leaning poster has corrected your behavior.

Again, either one has total spiritual ability, or none. There is NO in between, moderately spiritual.

What it seems is that you desire to have some presentation of spiritual ability rather than understanding such is not Scriptural.

It is troubling that all the Scriptures that you present actually do not support what you desire, yet you so don’t want to be seen as infallible on this topic.

It is sad that you consider the truth repulsive.

Not much of a cure for that other than submitting to the truth and being at peace in knowing you now embrace the truth.

 

[Van]

Yet, again, you are not addressing the issue.
Yet, again, you provide no scriptural support for your bogus assertions, such as people can understand milk but not meat, as taught in 1 Corinthians.
I explained why the verses I cited demonstrate total spiritual inability is bogus, and your response, "the scriptures do not support you." Just another taint so post.
Total Spiritual Inability has been shown to be bogus, fallen men are able to will to be saved, Romans 9:16, fallen men seek God through faith or works or both, Romans 9:31-33, fallen men receive the gospel, Matthew 13:1-23, and fallen men were entering the kingdom, Matthew 23:13.

 

[agedman]

Total Spiritual Inability has been shown to be bogus, fallen men are able to will to be saved, Romans 9:16, fallen men seek God through faith or works or both, Romans 9:31-33, fallen men receive the gospel, Matthew 13:1-23, and fallen men were entering the kingdom, Matthew 23:13.

So as not to misunderstand:

1)... fallen men are able to will to be saved,
2)... fallen men seek God through faith or works or both,
3)... fallen men receive the gospel,
4)... and fallen men were entering the kingdom,

Now, might I suggest the following modifications to your thinking, or present that which is more accurate to and consistent with the Scripture.

1)... fallen men are able to will to be saved by God’s gracious work of both the Scriptures and the Holy Spirit bringing faith that the person believes.
2)... fallen men seek God by God’s gracious work of both the Scriptures and the Holy Spirit bringing faith that the person believes. ,
3)... fallen men receive the gospel by God’s gracious work of both the Scriptures and the Holy Spirit bringing faith that the person believes.
4)... and fallen men were entering the kingdom by God’s gracious work of both the Scriptures and the Holy Spirit bringing faith that the person believes.

 

[Van]

Yet another change of subject. Total Spiritual Inability is bogus doctrine, see Romans 9:16, Romans 9:31-33, Matthew 13:1-23, and Matthew 23:13.;

And BTW, note how Agedman has rewritten scripture to say what it does not say.
Would God say it does not depend on the man that wills, if God through irresistible grace compelled his/her to will? LOL
Would God say people seek God but did not find His righteousness, if God had compelled seeking God. LOL
Would God say men received the gospel, but were not saved, if God had compelled them to receive the gospel? LOL

Keep you eye on the topic folks, and pay no attention to the smokescreen.

 

[agedman]

Yet another change of subject. Total Spiritual Inability is bogus doctrine, see Romans 9:16, Romans 9:31-33, Matthew 13:1-23, and Matthew 23:13.;

And BTW, note how Agedman has rewritten scripture to say what it does not say.
Would God say it does not depend on the man that wills, if God through irresistible grace compelled his/her to will? LOL
Would God say people seek God but did not find His righteousness, if God had compelled seeking God. LOL
Would God say men received the gospel, but were not saved, if God had compelled them to receive the gospel? LOL

Keep you eye on the topic folks, and pay no attention to the smokescreen.

So, you do not see a conflict between your statement that man has the ability to will and the Scripture it is not by man’s will?


Just what can fallen man will?

 

[agedman]

Van,

Does the new nature not also include a new will?

The old nature is not remade (despite the preaching some have heard), in contrast the Scriptures present that believers are a new creation, which includes a new will.

 

[Yeshua1]

Thank you. I believe in total inability because God must regenerate before faith can be manifest.

Yep, as God delivers to each saved person the new heart/mind with the saving faith at the same time ....

 

[Yeshua1]

“NOT by the WILL of man,” means to Van that man “can will and work to be saved.”

Now, I realize tha my comprehension skills are becoming more frail, and my memory has too much arthritic to turn the pages of recall, but it does seem reasonable that when the Scriptures state “NOT by” and gives two specifics as to what is NOT by, then it just doesn’t take that much memory and comprehension to see that it is NOT by will or work.

Yet, Van would declare the opposite.

IF God relied upon the will of all sinners to save themselves, we would all just desire to stay lost!

 

[Yeshua1]

Van,

Does the new nature not also include a new will?

The old nature is not remade (despite the preaching some have heard), in contrast the Scriptures present that believers are a new creation, which includes a new will.

The only plan God has for our sin nature is to have it killed off at the Cross, and wants to daily make sure it stays dead!

 

[Yeshua1]

I believe a person enters into a salvific relationship with God when they receive indwelling Holy Spirit. What happens prior is a "movement" of God on that person to bring them to a place where they express faith in God. I believe the Gospel (Jesus Christ and Him crucified for sins) is an essential part of the "movement". The rest of the discussion is debate without end. Perhaps it is enough for me to know a person cannot come to salvation unless God is involved.

God MUST draw the person to Jesus to get saved, as none of us will do that by and of ourselves!

 

[Yeshua1]

Note the change of subject, the verse shows fallen people can will and work to be saved, thus having some spiritual ability. His bogus doctrine claims fallen people are unable, unless enabled by irresistible grace, to seek God and trust in Christ. Thus Romans 9:16 demonstrates his man-made doctrine is bogus.

He keeps claiming my view is man somehow saves himself. That is false. Last point, accepting the gospel and trusting in Jesus is an act of human will, but that will does not save anyone. God and God alone saves whom He chooses, and He chooses those whose faith he credits as righteousness.

What part of our will and nature was not affected by the fall?

 

[agedman]

The only plan God has for our sin nature is to have it killed off at the Cross, and wants to daily make sure it stays dead!

I disagree as far as the timing of the old nature "killed off."

Paul makes it clear that the old nature is still a force in which to be reckoned (see Romans 7 for conflict of two natures)

When will the old nature be "killed off?" When Paul was writing to the Philippians about the conflicts they were facing, he presents the better estate of one who dies, in comparison to that of remaining alive. That by continuing to live, there is purpose for OTHERS and not for ourselves. Philippians 1:21 - 30

 

[Yeshua1]

I disagree as far as the timing of the old nature "killed off."

Paul makes it clear that the old nature is still a force in which to be reckoned (see Romans 7 for conflict of two natures)

When will the old nature be "killed off?" When Paul was writing to the Philippians about the conflicts they were facing, he presents the better estate of one who dies, in comparison to that of remaining alive. That by continuing to live, there is purpose for OTHERS and not for ourselves. Philippians 1:21 - 30

I agree with you that the time of the sin nature being finally and fully dealt with is when we are glorified, but while in this body of flesh, still commanded to reckon ourselves as having died in Christ, and be new arising with/in Him.
The sin nature still lurks, and we have to make sure it stays nailed in its coffin!

 

[Calv1]

When a sinner is listening to a precise clear gospel message and comes to the realization of his lost state and that he can offer nothing to God. The moment that the word of God is working in the sinners heart showing the sinner of his total depravity. In this moment that the word of God is working on him convicting him of his lost condition. The sinner responds in his heart that everything that was stated in this precise presentation of the gospel message is 100% true. He realizes he can do nothing to save himself, other than fully trust what Jesus did for him on the cross. At this moment is he saved?
And if you say he is saved Do you believe the sinner can say my free will gave me a choice to accept or reject the gospel?

Here is were my personal dilemma is. I personally believe in irresistible grace. I believe once the sinner fully placed his trust in what Jesus Christ done he is saved and he can no longer say he had a choice in the matter. I believe once the light of the gospel has shown your total and utter helplessness. You are left having no other choice to make. It leaves you with only one option and only one option. That is to simply believe Jesus and the glorious gospel message.

I read this statement of faith (below) from a church that claims to believe in the doctrines of grace. Do you believe this statement conflicts with the doctrines of grace?

III. AND THAT NOTHING PREVENTS THE SALVATION OF THE GREATEST SINNER ON EARTH, BUT HIS OWN INHERENT DEPRAVITY AND VOLUNTARY REJECTION OF THE GOSPEL."

A. John 5:39-40 - These Pharisees were searching the scriptures, but they refused to come to Christ.

1. Jesus said that lost sinners willingly stay away from him; they do it because they want to.

2. Man’s own will is depraved and contrary to God’s will, therefore, instead of coming to Him, they go away.

3. John 3:19 – "And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil."

B. People are lost because they want to be lost.

1. Only when sinners want to be saved more than anything else will they come to Jesus that they might have life.

2. John 3:18-19 – "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil."

C. Other scriptures that teach this to be true are:
Matt. 23:37 - Christ desired Jerusalem to come to Him, but they refused (and was destroyed).

1. Romans 9:31-33 - Israel didn’t receive righteousness because they sought it by the keeping of the law, not by faith in the righteousness of Christ.

2. Proverbs 1:24 - This verse is a symbolic gesture. Wisdom (God) called to the simple ones (sinners) to turn from wickedness, but they wouldn’t hear.

3. Acts 13:46 - Paul and Barnabas turning from the unbelieving Jews to the Gentiles.

"THERE IS NNE THAT SEEKS GOD, NO NOT ONE", if you believe scripture that's the answer. "The natural man is UNABLE to please God", "The natural man is UNABLE to understand the things of the Spirit", "You are UNABLE to come to me unless the Father who sent me DRAW HIM, ALL that the Father draws WILL COME, and he who comes I will in no wise cast out".

We believe, but ONLY AS A RESULT OF GOD'S ELECTION, Eph 1, Acts 16:2, Romans 9, John 6:40 et al

 

[saved and sure]

I thought that this may be a good reminder of what people who believe in what Calvin taught teach:
"There are five points and they spell TULIP. That’s a little memory device and the T stands for “total depravity.” That means we are just about as bad as we can get. TOTAL DEPRAVITY (to be depraved means to be evil). The U stands for “unconditional election.” That is, salvation begins in the heart and mind of God and it is without any conditions whatsoever. God determines it…UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION. God just simply elects some individuals to be saved. The next thing is the L which is “limited atonement.” These people believe that Jesus did not die for all. He died for the elect. So the atonement is limited to the elect…LIMITED ATONEMENT. The I stands for “irresistible grace”. If God is going to save you, there’s nothing you can do about it. His Holy Spirit is going to zap you and you’re a goner, because that is irresistible. There’s no way that you could resist the Holy Spirit of God. So, if you’re one of the elect, you’re going to be saved and there’s nothing you can do about it. And if you’re not one of the elect, there’s nothing you can do about that either. So that is IRRESISTIBLE GRACE. And then, the last, the P stands for “perseverance of the saints.” Once you’re saved, then you persevere and you go on to Heaven…PERSEVERANCE OF THE SAINTS"

 

[TCassidy]

"There are five points and they spell TULIP.

Except TULIP came along almost 400 years after John Calvin died.

T stands for “total depravity.” That means we are just about as bad as we can get. TOTAL DEPRAVITY (to be depraved means to be evil).

Uh, no, that is not what Total Depravity means.

The U stands for “unconditional election.” That is, salvation begins in the heart and mind of God and it is without any conditions whatsoever. God determines it…UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION. God just simply elects some individuals to be saved.

No, that is not Unconditional Election.

The next thing is the L which is “limited atonement.” These people believe that Jesus did not die for all. He died for the elect. So the atonement is limited to the elect…LIMITED ATONEMENT.

Wrong again. That is not what Limited Atonement means.

The I stands for “irresistible grace”. If God is going to save you, there’s nothing you can do about it. His Holy Spirit is going to zap you and you’re a goner, because that is irresistible. There’s no way that you could resist the Holy Spirit of God. So, if you’re one of the elect, you’re going to be saved and there’s nothing you can do about it. And if you’re not one of the elect, there’s nothing you can do about that either. So that is IRRESISTIBLE GRACE.

No, again. That is not what Irresistible Grace means.

And then, the last, the P stands for “perseverance of the saints.” Once you’re saved, then you persevere and you go on to Heaven…PERSEVERANCE OF THE SAINTS"

Nope. You got it wrong again.

For someone who seems to think you can teach us what Particular Redemption is all about you don't seem to know very much about it. Did you just Copy & Paste this from some idiotic web page?

 

[Mr. Davis]

"THERE IS NNE THAT SEEKS GOD, NO NOT ONE", if you believe scripture that's the answer. "The natural man is UNABLE to please God", "The natural man is UNABLE to understand the things of the Spirit", "You are UNABLE to come to me unless the Father who sent me DRAW HIM, ALL that the Father draws WILL COME, and he who comes I will in no wise cast out".

We believe, but ONLY AS A RESULT OF GOD'S ELECTION, Eph 1, Acts 16:2, Romans 9, John 6:40 et al

Just finished reading some of The Bondage of the Will. Salvation is all of God and none of me!
Also Romans 5:19.

 

[saved and sure]

Except TULIP came along almost 400 years after John Calvin died.

Uh, no, that is not what Total Depravity means.

No, that is not Unconditional Election.

Wrong again. That is not what Limited Atonement means.

No, again. That is not what Irresistible Grace means.

Nope. You got it wrong again.

For someone who seems to think you can teach us what Particular Redemption is all about you don't seem to know very much about it. Did you just Copy & Paste this from some idiotic web page?

My apologies. I had put in the quotes but forgot to reference the article and Author:
REFORMED THEOLOGY by Dr. Adrian Rogers
https://www.lacollege.edu/sites/default/files/reformed_theology_jan_13.pdf

By the way, I don't view Adrian Rogers as an idiot!

 

[TCassidy]

By the way, I don't view Adrian Rogers as an idiot!

If your "quotes" are what he actually said, then, yes, he is an idiot. Of course Rogers is well known as a rabid anti-Calvinist who makes all sorts of absurd statements and blames them on Calvinists.

His most idiotic is "Without freewill you are accusing our Holy and Righteous God of being the Author of sin, which is exactly what Calvinism/Reformed Theology does." And that is a lie straight out of the pit of hell.

The doctrine of free will does NOT accuse God of being the author of sin. That is just an idiotic lie.

Now, if you really want to know what Historic Particular Redemption really is, I would be glad to discuss the 5 Heads of Doctrine as published by the Synod of Dordt in 1618/9 with you, and point out the egregious errors of your above thread.