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Do You Agree with Calvin or Wright On the Nature of the Atonement?

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Robert William

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Scripture please!!!!!
Romans 3:10-12

1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Limited Atonement (Particular Redemption)

Limited Atonement is a doctrine offered in answer to the question, "for whose sins did Christ atone?" The Bible teaches that Christ died for those whom God gave him to save (John 17:9)

Joh 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine... Christ died, indeed, for many people, but not all (Matthew 26:28).

Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins

Specifically, Christ died for the invisible Church -- the sum total of all those who would ever rightly bear the name "Christian" (Ephesians 5:25).
This doctrine often finds many objections, mostly from those who think that Limited Atonement does damage to evangelism. We have already seen that Christ will not lose any that the father has given to him (John 6:37). Christ's death was not a death of potential atonement for all people. Believing that Jesus' death was a potential, symbolic atonement for anyone who might possibly, in the future, accept him trivializes Christ's act of atonement. Christ died to atone for specific sins of specific sinners. Christ died to make holy the church. He did not Atone for all men, because obviously all men are not saved. Evangelism is actually lifted up in this doctrine, for the evangelist may tell his congregation that Christ died for sinners, and that he will not lose any of those for whom he died!
 

TCassidy

Late-Administator Emeritus
Administrator
I agree, but I don't think Van was suggesting universal salvation.
I don't think so either. He seems to be saying propitiation is the means of salvation. I agree with that, but if all people, without exception, have had their sins atoned for, as atonement is the complete propitiation, the complete satisfaction for, the complete payment for sin, then he seems to be saying those who have had their sins completely paid for somehow still go to hell. Even though they are without sin and without the penalty for sin. ???
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
Yes he did, Van preaches that Jesus Atoned for the sins of ALL humans, that's universal salvation..
He did not in the post you quoted (he said Christ became the propitiation and Christ became the means).

If you are going to make the accusation then you need to provide the evidence along with that accusation.
 

Robert William

Member
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He did not in the post you quoted (he said Christ became the propitiation and Christ became the means).

If you are going to make the accusation then you need to provide the evidence along with that accusation.

Yes OK, but we both know by his previous posts that his interpretation of "sins of the whole world" is that Jesus atoned for the sins of ALL humans, he is trying to sneak his way around it.
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
I don't think so either. He seems to be saying propitiation is the means of salvation. I agree with that, but if all people, without exception, have had their sins atoned for, as atonement is the complete propitiation, the complete satisfaction for, the complete payment for sin, then he seems to be saying those who have had their sins completely paid for somehow still go to hell. Even though they are without sin and without the penalty for sin. ???
Not to speak for Van, but I don't think he means all men experienced their sins forgiven.
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
Yes OK, but we both know by his previous posts that his interpretation of "sins of the whole world" is that Jesus atoned for the sins of ALL humans, he is trying to sneak his way around it.
I didn't see that post.

Christ is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world (all of humanity)....in other words Jesus is the Savior of all men, especially those who believe (or, there is no other name given to men by which we must be saved).
 

agedman

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I don't think so either. He seems to be saying propitiation is the means of salvation. I agree with that, but if all people, without exception, have had their sins atoned for, as atonement is the complete propitiation, the complete satisfaction for, the complete payment for sin, then he seems to be saying those who have had their sins completely paid for somehow still go to hell. Even though they are without sin and without the penalty for sin. ???
Why do people go to hell?

What does John state is the reason folks are already condemned?

Not from lack of blood.
 

TCassidy

Late-Administator Emeritus
Administrator
Christ is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world (all of humanity).
That statement is the heart of the problem. Propitiation is the complete satisfaction for the sin debt. If the satisfaction is complete then all men are sin free and nobody sin free can go to hell if God is a Just God, as I believe Him to be. :)
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
That statement is the heart of the problem. Propitiation is the complete satisfaction for the sin debt. If the satisfaction is complete then all men are sin free and nobody sin free can go to hell if God is a Just God, as I believe Him to be. :)
But that statement (Christ is the propitiation) has Christ as its subject. It's no different than saying Christ is the only name given to man under which we must be saved. There is no other way but Christ.
 

TCassidy

Late-Administator Emeritus
Administrator
But that statement (Christ is the propitiation) has Christ as its subject. It's no different than saying Christ is the only name given to man under which we must be saved. There is no other way but Christ.
You seem to have missed the point. How can a sinless person go to hell?
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
If that person has received the complete propitiation for his sins, he is sinless. And if propitiation is universal, so is salvation.
I do not believe that person has received the complete propitiation for his sins. As I said, Jesus is the propitiation for the sins of the world.
 
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