1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Propitiation

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by TCassidy, Nov 11, 2017.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Top Posters
Page 1 of 8
  1. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2005
    Messages:
    20,080
    Likes Received:
    3,491
    Faith:
    Baptist
    So, what do you believe has to be added to the finished work of Christ to complete His incomplete act of propitiation?
     
    #1 TCassidy, Nov 11, 2017
    • Like Like x 1
  2. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    35,198
    Likes Received:
    3,791
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I don't believe anything has been added.

    For example (maybe as an explanation):

    I believe that we fix our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers. Does this mean that all are saved? No, because it is speaking of God and not men. Jesus is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.

    God loved the world in this way, that He sent His Son that all who believe will have everlasting life. Does this mean that God loved the world as a whole (humanity)? Yes. The way He loved the world, however, is that He sent His Son that all who believe will be saved.

    Jesus is the propitiation for all human sin. Does this mean that all experience a propitiation of their sins? No. The subject is Christ and not men or human sin. Jesus is the Lamb who takes away the sins of the world. Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life, and no man comes to the Father but by Him.

    As Jesus said on the Cross - IT IS FINISHED. And our hope is in Christ as God vindicated His Son by raising Him from the dead. Nothing to be added. Christ is the "last Adam".
     
    #2 JonC, Nov 11, 2017
  3. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Did God intend the death of Jesus to benefit and save all sinners then?
     
    #3 Yeshua1, Nov 11, 2017
  4. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    35,198
    Likes Received:
    3,791
    Faith:
    Baptist
    All who believe.
     
    #4 JonC, Nov 11, 2017
  5. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2005
    Messages:
    20,080
    Likes Received:
    3,491
    Faith:
    Baptist
    So if, as you say, the sinner's sins are not fully satisfied (propitiated) by Christ's work on the cross, how are they fully propitiated?
     
    #5 TCassidy, Nov 11, 2017
    • Agree Agree x 1
  6. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    35,198
    Likes Received:
    3,791
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I am not saying that they are "fully propitiated" (although I am not certain there is such a thing as "partially propitiated", now that I think about it).

    I am saying that Jesus IS the propitiation for the sins of the world. Jesus IS the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.

    And, just to be clear, I am not really the one saying it....I cheated and borrowed it from the Bible. ;)
     
    #6 JonC, Nov 11, 2017
  7. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2005
    Messages:
    20,080
    Likes Received:
    3,491
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Once again, Jon, you are making absolutely no sense. You said "I do not believe that person has received the complete propitiation for his sins. As I said, Jesus is the propitiation for the sins of the world." So if Christ's propitiatory sacrifice is insufficient to get a person to heaven, what more is needed?
     
    #7 TCassidy, Nov 11, 2017
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  8. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    35,198
    Likes Received:
    3,791
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I do not understand what you are getting at, TC.

    I believe that Jesus is the Lamb who takes away the sins of the world. But I do not believe that every person is saved. Just because Jesus is the propitiation does not mean that all men have their sins propitiated.

    Look at it this way: I also believe that Jesus is the Savior of all men, especially those who believe. The "all men", here, I believe to indicate that Jesus is the one and only way making it possible that all be saved. But at the same time He died to save those who believe.

    The lost who refuse to believe do not define Jesus' identity.
     
    #8 JonC, Nov 11, 2017
  9. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2005
    Messages:
    20,080
    Likes Received:
    3,491
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I'm saying, if Christ's propitiatory sacrifice is insufficient to get a person to heaven, what more is needed?

    Let me lay it out one more time.

    You said:
    I said:
    To which you replied:
    So, again, if Christ's propitiatory sacrifice is insufficient to get a person to heaven, what more is needed?
     
    #9 TCassidy, Nov 11, 2017
    • Like Like x 1
  10. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Did the death and blood of Jesus propitiate the wrath of God towards the elect, or towards all sinners?
     
    #10 Yeshua1, Nov 11, 2017
  11. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    Messages:
    52,030
    Likes Received:
    3,657
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I have to go with TC on this one. I do not get your point.
     
    #11 Revmitchell, Nov 11, 2017
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  12. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    35,198
    Likes Received:
    3,791
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Sorry for the misunderstanding.

    A person needs a new heart and a new spirit; for God to put His Spirit in them. In short, a person needs to be born again.
     
    #12 JonC, Nov 11, 2017
  13. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2011
    Messages:
    11,023
    Likes Received:
    1,108
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The problem is the link some suppose there to be conditioning the atonement sacrifice both of the OT and that of the Christ, and salvation.

    Not true. Not true even in Scripture practice and statement.

    Again Romans 5 is Paul dealing with this issue.

    OT atonement blood was for every person in the land and sea. Just as the death of Christ by blood letting was for all humankind in God’s creation (the land and sea).

    However, blood atonement did not mean automatic salvation.

    Salvation of all ages comes through God granted faith in order for a person to believe.

    Belief brings salvation, NOT blood. (John 3, Ephesians 2)
     
    #13 agedman, Nov 11, 2017
  14. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2005
    Messages:
    20,080
    Likes Received:
    3,491
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Yes, and how is that linked to the propitiatory sacrifice of Christ?
     
    #14 TCassidy, Nov 11, 2017
  15. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    35,198
    Likes Received:
    3,791
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I was referring to that specific verse. It does not say all men have their sins stoned for and God's wrath turned aside. It says Christ is the sacrifice (the Lamb).

    Do you think that Christ being the Lamb who takes away the sins of the world (the propitiation, the atoning sacrifice) means all sins are forgiven universally?
     
    #15 JonC, Nov 11, 2017
  16. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    35,198
    Likes Received:
    3,791
    Faith:
    Baptist
    We are recreated in Christ. Through Him God was reconciling the world to Himself, not counting our sins against us.
     
    #16 JonC, Nov 11, 2017
  17. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2011
    Messages:
    11,023
    Likes Received:
    1,108
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Why not, the Apostle John did?
     
    #17 agedman, Nov 11, 2017
  18. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Did the death of Jesus appease/satisfy the wrath of God towards all sinners, or jst towards His elect?
     
    #18 Yeshua1, Nov 11, 2017
    • Agree Agree x 1
  19. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2005
    Messages:
    20,080
    Likes Received:
    3,491
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Again, how is that linked to the propitiatory sacrifice of Christ?
     
    #19 TCassidy, Nov 11, 2017
  20. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    35,198
    Likes Received:
    3,791
    Faith:
    Baptist
    How is it not?
     
    #20 JonC, Nov 11, 2017
Page 1 of 8
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...