So, what do you believe has to be added to the finished work of Christ to complete His incomplete act of propitiation?
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Propitiation
- Thread starter TCassidy
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I don't believe anything has been added.
For example (maybe as an explanation):
I believe that we fix our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers. Does this mean that all are saved? No, because it is speaking of God and not men. Jesus is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.
God loved the world in this way, that He sent His Son that all who believe will have everlasting life. Does this mean that God loved the world as a whole (humanity)? Yes. The way He loved the world, however, is that He sent His Son that all who believe will be saved.
Jesus is the propitiation for all human sin. Does this mean that all experience a propitiation of their sins? No. The subject is Christ and not men or human sin. Jesus is the Lamb who takes away the sins of the world. Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life, and no man comes to the Father but by Him.
As Jesus said on the Cross - IT IS FINISHED. And our hope is in Christ as God vindicated His Son by raising Him from the dead. Nothing to be added. Christ is the "last Adam".
Did God intend the death of Jesus to benefit and save all sinners then?
All who believe.
I am not saying that they are "fully propitiated" (although I am not certain there is such a thing as "partially propitiated", now that I think about it).
I am saying that Jesus IS the propitiation for the sins of the world. Jesus IS the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.
And, just to be clear, I am not really the one saying it....I cheated and borrowed it from the Bible.
Once again, Jon, you are making absolutely no sense. You said "I do not believe that person has received the complete propitiation for his sins. As I said, Jesus is the propitiation for the sins of the world." So if Christ's propitiatory sacrifice is insufficient to get a person to heaven, what more is needed?I am not saying that they are "fully propitiated" (although I am not certain there is such a thing as "partially propitiated", now that I think about it).
I am saying that Jesus IS the propitiation for the sins of the world. Jesus IS the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.
And, just to be clear, I am not really the one saying it....I cheated and borrowed it from the Bible.
I do not understand what you are getting at, TC.
I believe that Jesus is the Lamb who takes away the sins of the world. But I do not believe that every person is saved. Just because Jesus is the propitiation does not mean that all men have their sins propitiated.
Look at it this way: I also believe that Jesus is the Savior of all men, especially those who believe. The "all men", here, I believe to indicate that Jesus is the one and only way making it possible that all be saved. But at the same time He died to save those who believe.
The lost who refuse to believe do not define Jesus' identity.
I'm saying, if Christ's propitiatory sacrifice is insufficient to get a person to heaven, what more is needed?
Let me lay it out one more time.
You said:
I said:
To which you replied:
So, again, if Christ's propitiatory sacrifice is insufficient to get a person to heaven, what more is needed?
Did the death and blood of Jesus propitiate the wrath of God towards the elect, or towards all sinners?
I have to go with TC on this one. I do not get your point.
Sorry for the misunderstanding.
A person needs a new heart and a new spirit; for God to put His Spirit in them. In short, a person needs to be born again.
The problem is the link some suppose there to be conditioning the atonement sacrifice both of the OT and that of the Christ, and salvation.
Not true. Not true even in Scripture practice and statement.
Again Romans 5 is Paul dealing with this issue.
OT atonement blood was for every person in the land and sea. Just as the death of Christ by blood letting was for all humankind in God’s creation (the land and sea).
However, blood atonement did not mean automatic salvation.
Salvation of all ages comes through God granted faith in order for a person to believe.
Belief brings salvation, NOT blood. (John 3, Ephesians 2)
Not true. Not true even in Scripture practice and statement.
Again Romans 5 is Paul dealing with this issue.
OT atonement blood was for every person in the land and sea. Just as the death of Christ by blood letting was for all humankind in God’s creation (the land and sea).
However, blood atonement did not mean automatic salvation.
Salvation of all ages comes through God granted faith in order for a person to believe.
Belief brings salvation, NOT blood. (John 3, Ephesians 2)
Yes, and how is that linked to the propitiatory sacrifice of Christ?
I was referring to that specific verse. It does not say all men have their sins stoned for and God's wrath turned aside. It says Christ is the sacrifice (the Lamb).
Do you think that Christ being the Lamb who takes away the sins of the world (the propitiation, the atoning sacrifice) means all sins are forgiven universally?
We are recreated in Christ. Through Him God was reconciling the world to Himself, not counting our sins against us.
Why not, the Apostle John did?
Did the death of Jesus appease/satisfy the wrath of God towards all sinners, or jst towards His elect?
Again, how is that linked to the propitiatory sacrifice of Christ?
How is it not?
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