Is man restricted to his own Nature?

[MB]

T. Cassidy wrote;

We are talking about the bondage of the will. The lost man is only able to make choices that are within his moral/spiritual nature.

For instance. A fly, one of the simplest of creatures, can walk on the ceiling. But I, a much more complex creature, cannot. Why not? Is the fly better than me? Is the fly smarter than me? (Shut up, Hank!) Why can the fly walk on the ceiling and I can't? Simple. It is not in my physical nature to be able to walk on the ceiling.

The same is true of lost people. They can only do, or choose to do, that which is within their nature.

I can't think of a more ridiculous theory. When man's will changes with discovery such as when man for the first time hears the gospel. Regardless of whether or not it's in his nature. Man's nature does not govern what he can or can't do. No where in scripture is it ever shown that man cannot come to God. In fact man is invited.
Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
many will say man cannot come to God unless he is drawn not realizing that all men are drawn Jn 12:32

Man has already done what is not in His nature. Men can fly. Men can swim under water with out coming up for a breath. In fact men walk on the ceiling in a space craft. To compare man's will to that of a fly is an insult to God's creation. Most of all man can and does learn of new things everyday that he could not do until he learns of them.

Total depravity is not in man's nature. Depraved yes we are before Salvation, but total depravity does not allow for Conscience. Conscience is that which causes man to become guilty before God. It's what conviction is all about. Once we are saved we have all ready been forgiven and conviction can only happen when we sin after that.
MB

 

[TCassidy]

I can't think of a more ridiculous theory.

I am sorry you didn't understand it. I will try to explain it to you.

Man's nature does not govern what he can or can't do.

Of course it does. A lost man cannot go to Heaven no matter how badly he wants to. The ONLY way to Heaven is through Christ. Man's fallen nature governs his destination. And until Christ changes that destination, the man is destined for Hell.

No where in scripture is it ever shown that man cannot come to God.

It is shown that lost man WILL NOT come to God.

Romans 3:11 There is none that understands, there is none that seeks after God.

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

all men are drawn

Yes, we all know that. The Gospel call is universal. We have said that over and over and over again. I really don't know why we have to keep repeating it.

Men can fly.

No, they can't. I was a military pilot back in the 1960s. I did not fly. I don't have wings. The plane flew. It had wings. And, in fact, if it stopped flying while still up in the air, I had to get out of the plane. And when I got out, I did not fly. I fell. In free-fall, and prayed my parachute would save my life because I COULDN"T FLY!

Men can swim under water with out coming up for a breath.

No, they can't. The scuba gear provides breath for them. Without the gear, they drown.

In fact men walk on the ceiling in a space craft.

No, they don't. They are in free-fall. There is no ceiling.

And it is now obvious you are desperately trying to think up nonsense to try to keep you from having to admit the truth.

To compare man's will to that of a fly is an insult to God's creation.

And now you twist what I said into your untruth. I never compared my will to a fly's will. I compared my NATURE to a fly's NATURE and went out of my way to include "simple' and "complex" in that comparison. I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you have a comprehension problem and not a problem with the truth.

Most of all man can and does learn of new things everyday that he could not do until he learns of them.

Nobody has said otherwise. But no matter how hard he tries, or how much he learns, he can't walk on the ceiling, and can't fly.

Total depravity is not in man's nature.

What part of man's nature, his body, soul, or spirit, do you think is unfallen and able to approach a Holy God on its own merits?

Conscience is that which causes man to become guilty before God.

And the lost man's conscience is seared and defiled, burned, scared, cauterized, no longer functioning.

1 Timothy 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron.

Titus 1:15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.

And a seared and defiled conscience will never cause a lost man to seek a Holy God. The ONLY way that conscience ever be spiritually valuable again is when it is renewed, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience.

 

[Revmitchell]

Total depravity is a false doctrine.

 

[Yeshua1]

T. Cassidy wrote;

I can't think of a more ridiculous theory. When man's will changes with discovery such as when man for the first time hears the gospel. Regardless of whether or not it's in his nature. Man's nature does not govern what he can or can't do. No where in scripture is it ever shown that man cannot come to God. In fact man is invited.
Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
many will say man cannot come to God unless he is drawn not realizing that all men are drawn Jn 12:32

Man has already done what is not in His nature. Men can fly. Men can swim under water with out coming up for a breath. In fact men walk on the ceiling in a space craft. To compare man's will to that of a fly is an insult to God's creation. Most of all man can and does learn of new things everyday that he could not do until he learns of them.

Total depravity is not in man's nature. Depraved yes we are before Salvation, but total depravity does not allow for Conscience. Conscience is that which causes man to become guilty before God. It's what conviction is all about. Once we are saved we have all ready been forgiven and conviction can only happen when we sin after that.
MB

The sin nature places upon us restrictions, as we are no longer free to do all things, but free to do all things consistent with being a sinner...

 

[utilyan]

All we need is an example of someone who is regenerated without cooperating to hear the gospel in the first place.

If regeneration can only follow willingly listening to the gospel then it requires man's choice to listen.

 

[TCassidy]

Total depravity is a false doctrine.

So which part of man is not fallen? His body? His soul? His spirit?

 

[TCassidy]

Total depravity is a false doctrine.

Denying Total Depravity is a false doctrine.

[sarcasm] (Wow! What a deep, thoughtful, and meaningful debate!) [/sarcasm]

 

[MB]

I am sorry you didn't understand it. I will try to explain it to you.

Of course it does. A lost man cannot go to Heaven no matter how badly he wants to. The ONLY way to Heaven is through Christ. Man's fallen nature governs his destination. And until Christ changes that destination, the man is destined for Hell.

Yet lost men are saved everyday. Lost men come to God everyday. Lost men call out to God in fox wholes under fire who don't know God. Thousands have received Christ at Billy Graham meetings all because of the invitation and drawing of Christ. They are not unable

It is shown that lost man WILL NOT come to God.

Romans 3:11 There is none that understands, there is none that seeks after God.

The same man who said this originally also said there is no God;
Psa 14:1 To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
Psa 14:2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.

Notice this passage does not say that the natural man cannot.

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

2Co_8:12 For if there be first a willing mind, it is accepted according to that a man hath, and not according to that he hath not.

Yes, we all know that. The Gospel call is universal. We have said that over and over and over again. I really don't know why we have to keep repeating it.
[QUOTE]
A call that no one can respond to with out qualifications. Do you really believe God makes mistakes like calling those who cannot answer?

No, they can't. I was a military pilot back in the 1960s. I did not fly. I don't have wings. The plane flew. It had wings. And, in fact, if it stopped flying while still up in the air, I had to get out of the plane. And when I got out, I did not fly. I fell. In free-fall, and prayed my parachute would save my life because I COULDN"T FLY!
[?QUOTE]
You are denying that men do fly with in the space capsules that circle our globe.

No, they can't. The scuba gear provides breath for them. Without the gear, they drown.

You are really out dated aren't you on technology. Babies live in and breath salt water while in the placenta.

No, they don't. They are in free-fall. There is no ceiling.

you cannot fall where there is no gravity.

And it is now obvious you are desperately trying to think up nonsense to try to keep you from having to admit the truth.

I've already admitted the truth and will never admit to lies.

And now you twist what I said into your untruth. I never compared my will to a fly's will. I compared my NATURE to a fly's NATURE and went out of my way to include "simple' and "complex" in that comparison. I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you have a comprehension problem and not a problem with the truth.

I understand that you do not know what your talking about because you are deceived by Calvinism.

Nobody has said otherwise. But no matter how hard he tries, or how much he learns, he can't walk on the ceiling, and can't fly.

What part of man's nature, his body, soul, or spirit, do you think is unfallen and able to approach a Holy God on its own merits?

Body soul and spirit is able to come to Christ. No Calvinist can prove with scripture that man is not able to His respond to His Drawing and all men are drawn.

And the lost man's conscience is seared and defiled, burned, scared, cauterized, no longer functioning.

1 Timothy 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron.

Titus 1:15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.

And a seared and defiled conscience will never cause a lost man to seek a Holy God. The ONLY way that conscience ever be spiritually valuable again is when it is renewed, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience.

A lot of so called Christians have the same problem yet this does not effect their wills.
MB

 

[JonC]

Yes, men are restricted to their own natures. This is what "nature" is. It is our assurance that God will act only in accord to His nature. "Nature" in this context is descriptive of us.

 

[utilyan]

John 20

30Therefore many other signs Jesus also performed in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; 31but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.

Can someone "exegete" and give a plain English meaning to what this verse is saying?

I must have the wrong impression that John is stating the purpose of his writing his gospel which is that YOU (who does not believe), may believe.

I must have the wrong impression that if his purpose of the gospel was merely preaching to the choir of a believer there would not at all be a "so that you may believe".

 

[TCassidy]

Please learn to format correctly. And proofread your posts to make sure they are formatted correctly. Click on "More Options" then "Preview."

Yet lost men are saved everyday.

Yes. Christ changes their destination.

Lost men come to God everyday.

Yes. Christ changes their destination.

Lost men call out to God in fox wholes under fire who don't know God.

Yes. Christ changes their destination.

Thousands have received Christ at Billy Graham meetings all because of the invitation and drawing of Christ.

Yes. Christ changes their destination.

They are not unable

They are enabled by Christ.

2Co_8:12 For if there be first a willing mind, it is accepted according to that a man hath, and not according to that he hath not.

What does giving have to do with salvation? Surely you are not suggesting that a person can be saved by deciding to give a lot of money to the ministry?

 

[MB]

The sin nature places upon us restrictions, as we are no longer free to do all things, but free to do all things consistent with being a sinner...

Then you should be able to show this with scripture only

 

[TCassidy]

Then you should be able to show this with scripture only

Uh, I did. You ignored it.

1 Corinthians 2:14 Now the natural man doesn’t receive the things of God’s Spirit, for they are foolishness to him, and he can’t know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Romans 3:11 There is no one who understands. There is no one who seeks after God.

Romans 8:7 because the mind of the flesh is hostile towards God; for it is not subject to God’s law, neither indeed can it be.

 

[MB]

Uh, I did. You ignored it.

1 Corinthians 2:14 Now the natural man doesn’t receive the things of God’s Spirit, for they are foolishness to him, and he can’t know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Romans 3:11 There is no one who understands. There is no one who seeks after God.

Romans 8:7 because the mind of the flesh is hostile towards God; for it is not subject to God’s law, neither indeed can it be.

Nothing there saying we are totally depraved. Your so called proof just is not there the words "cannot" and "respond" are just not there, no impairment description, The only thing you have proved is that you are reading in to text what clearly isn't there.
MB

 

[TCassidy]

Nothing there saying we are totally depraved.

So, again I ask you, what part of man, body, soul, or spirit, was not ruined by the fall?

And 1 Corinthians 2:14 makes it very, very clear, "The natural man DOES NOT receive the things of God’s Spirit, for they are foolishness to him, and he CAN NOT know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

That's bible. Take it or leave it, but it is God's word.

 

[MB]

So, again I ask you, what part of man, body, soul, or spirit, was not ruined by the fall?

What fall would that be? Surely you don't mean heaven. Satan fell from heaven. A couple of mighty men fell in the book of Daniel. You'll have to be more specific. One guy lost all his hair and it fell to the Ground.
Did some man fall apart?
You see there is no fall of man in scripture. I know some say Adam fell but no one seems to know from where he fell. Men use this term all the time. Their claim is that man is a born sinner but being born in sin and being a born sinner are two different things. The first is true the second was made up by Augustine.

And 1 Corinthians 2:14 makes it very, very clear, "The natural man DOES NOT receive the things of God’s Spirit, for they are foolishness to him, and he CAN NOT know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

That's bible. Take it or leave it, but it is God's word.

Yes the word does say this but you have over looked what was said just a few sentences before this verse.
1Co 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
Salvation isn't about the deep things of God. Baby chiristians don't understand the deep things of God. We all start out on milk and gradually we begin to eat the meat. I'm surprised you didn't know that.

You really need to stop reading all that Calvinist literature and just stick to scripture alone. God's Word never fails.
MB

 

[TCassidy]

What fall would that be?

Adam sinned and fell from his place of fellowship with God. That is pretty basic. If you don't know that, or if you deny that, then you are either too ill informed or too heterodox to continue in this discussion.

You see there is no fall of man in scripture.

Heterodox it is.

You really need to stop reading all that Calvinist literature and just stick to scripture alone. God's Word never fails.

You need to stop the condescending nonsense toward other BB members.

 

[MB]

Heterodox it is.

You can call what I believe heterodox now this is condesending

 

[TCassidy]

You can call what I believe heterodox now this is condesending

No, that is an accurate assessment of your idea that mankind is not fallen. It is a denial of the Inspiration of Genesis chapter 3.

 

[utilyan]

So, again I ask you, what part of man, body, soul, or spirit, was not ruined by the fall?

And 1 Corinthians 2:14 makes it very, very clear, "The natural man DOES NOT receive the things of God’s Spirit, for they are foolishness to him, and he CAN NOT know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

That's bible. Take it or leave it, but it is God's word.

A worldly-minded person certainly does not receive the things of God's spirit, I've seen people who love money and all religion is a bunch of mumbo-jumbo.

Just because you don't receive pizza doesn't mean it hasn't been offered to you.

In other words nothing declared by your bible verse states that man has been totally depraved, or like you said every part of him is ruined by the fall.

If every part of you was ruined by the fall, then your entire nature as a human would have been destroyed, There would be NOTHING to save.

God doesn't save MURDER, he doesn't show mercy to RAPE. Something good has to be there WORTH SAVING. You are not a SIN who is pardoned by God.