Is man restricted to his own Nature?

[thatbrian]

Yet lost men are saved everyday.

Yes. God saves people every day.

Lost men come to God everyday.

God enables men to come (See John 6:44)

Thousands have received Christ at Billy Graham meetings all because of the invitation and drawing of Christ.

Firstly, Aare you aware that only 3-6% of the people who "go forward" in a crusade like that are any different in theology or behavior, one year later?

Secondly, people are saved at these events are saved by the preached word.

 

[Reformed]

I was asked, during my ordination examination, if I was a dichotomist or a trichotomist. I thought about it for a moment then said, "I am either an expanded dichotomist or a limited trichotomist." They all looked at me, then looked at each other, and the chairman said, "I think we better move along!"

You've enjoyed a lifetime of causing trouble, haven't you? LOL

 

[HankD]

T. Cassidy wrote;

I can't think of a more ridiculous theory. When man's will changes with discovery such as when man for the first time hears the gospel. Regardless of whether or not it's in his nature. Man's nature does not govern what he can or can't do. No where in scripture is it ever shown that man cannot come to God. In fact man is invited.
Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
many will say man cannot come to God unless he is drawn not realizing that all men are drawn Jn 12:32

Man has already done what is not in His nature. Men can fly. Men can swim under water with out coming up for a breath. In fact men walk on the ceiling in a space craft. To compare man's will to that of a fly is an insult to God's creation. Most of all man can and does learn of new things everyday that he could not do until he learns of them.

Total depravity is not in man's nature. Depraved yes we are before Salvation, but total depravity does not allow for Conscience. Conscience is that which causes man to become guilty before God. It's what conviction is all about. Once we are saved we have all ready been forgiven and conviction can only happen when we sin after that.
MB

not an act of conscience but an act initiated by the Holy Spirit called conviction, reproval (Grk. root elegcho)
It is outside of man's control because of the effect of Original Sin (Romans 5:12).

If one is non-calvinist logically then (or so it would seem) every human being would of necessity have to be convicted of sin for God to be righteous, giving each the knowledge of their helpless, hopeless and desperate condition

Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

followed by an opportunity and the gift of the power to make a choice .Of course God already knows what choice (He knew in eternity) will be made, but to fulfill all righteousness He makes a "middle voice" offer similar to this model

Isaiah 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

To each man at a level of what you call conscience:

John 16
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

John 1
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Notice of course verse 13 that it was God's will all along which you either put your stamp of approval on or not and go your merry way..

John1
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

HankD (not a fly )

 

[Yeshua1]

You can call what I believe heterodox now this is condesending

Do you hold to there being an historical Fall, by which all born afterwards were born as sinners?

 

[utilyan]

No, I don't think so. I can't imagine Jesus speaking the way you do. Name calling and assaulting a person's character is uncharitable and violates scripture.

Well I think calling folks totally depraved and deserving of going to hell just about pinnacles the uncharitable assault of a person's character.

You are by definition the worst insulting person here! To tell other people they deserve hell, are no good, and they deserve to actively sin against God for eternity.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I can't think of a more ridiculous theory. When man's will changes with discovery such as when man for the first time hears the gospel. Regardless of whether or not it's in his nature. Man's nature does not govern what he can or can't do. No where in scripture is it ever shown that man cannot come to God. In fact man is invited.
Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
many will say man cannot come to God unless he is drawn not realizing that all men are drawn Jn 12:32

Man has already done what is not in His nature. Men can fly. Men can swim under water with out coming up for a breath. In fact men walk on the ceiling in a space craft. To compare man's will to that of a fly is an insult to God's creation. Most of all man can and does learn of new things everyday that he could not do until he learns of them.

Total depravity is not in man's nature. Depraved yes we are before Salvation, but total depravity does not allow for Conscience. Conscience is that which causes man to become guilty before God. It's what conviction is all about. Once we are saved we have all ready been forgiven and conviction can only happen when we sin after that.
MB

Ohhh, I don’t like that theology... not in the least.

 

[Yeshua1]

Well I think calling folks totally depraved and deserving of going to hell just about pinnacles the uncharitable assault of a person's character.

You are by definition the worst insulting person here! To tell other people they deserve hell, are no good, and they deserve to actively sin against God for eternity.

You have read where in Isaiah God compares our very best good works as being filthy rages before Him?
That ALL are already condemned as being found in Adam as sinners, correct?
Trust me i this, that none of us were worth jesus death in our place, as we have nothing that merited any favor from God, that is why its called grace!

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

not an act of conscience but an act initiated by the Holy Spirit called conviction, reproval (Grk. root elegcho)
It is outside of man's control because of the effect of Original Sin (Romans 5:12).

If one is non-calvinist logically then (or so it would seem) every human being would of necessity have to be convicted of sin for God to be righteous, giving each the knowledge of their helpless, hopeless and desperate condition

Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

followed by an opportunity and the gift of the power to make a choice .Of course God already knows what choice (He knew in eternity) will be made, but to fulfill all righteousness He makes a "middle voice" offer similar to this model

Isaiah 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

To each man at a level of what you call conscience:

John 16
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

John 1
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Notice of course verse 13 that it was God's will all along which you either put your stamp of approval on or not and go your merry way..

John1
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

HankD (not a fly )

Problem is, that some "Calvinists/Reformed", are more interested in "doctrine" than what the Bible actually teaches. And, even when shown to be wrong from Scripture, still try to wriggle their way out or around the Truth!

 

[Iconoclast]

Denying Total Depravity is a false doctrine.

[sarcasm] (Wow! What a deep, thoughtful, and meaningful debate!) [/sarcasm]

RM has spoken.....it cannot be otherwise...he has declared a BB fatwa

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Total depravity is a false doctrine.

Defining doctrines now are you

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

RM has spoken.....it cannot be otherwise...he has declared a BB fatwa

Yea...isn’t he precious

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

Defining doctrines now are you

The Holy Bible teaches that TD is indeed FALSE!

 

[HankD]

Problem is, that some "Calvinists/Reformed", are more interested in "doctrine" than what the Bible actually teaches. And, even when shown to be wrong from Scripture, still try to wriggle their way out or around the Truth!

SBG, I HATE labels. A precious few are necessary IMO e.g. Trinitarian.

Personally I refuse to be identified by being tagged with a mortal man's name (usually a dead mortal man - physically I mean).

HankD

 

[MB]

The Bible teaches total depravity.


Ecclesiastes 7:29 - “See, this alone I found, that God made man upright, but they have sought out many schemes.”

Romans 5:12,19 - sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned… by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners

Psalm 143:2 - Enter not into judgment with your servant, for no one living is righteous before you.

Romans 3:23 - for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God

Romans 3:9-12 - What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.”

1 John 1:8,10 - If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we say we have not sinned, we make [God] a liar, and his word is not in us

Mark 7:21-23 - “For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person.”

Jeremiah 17:9 - “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?”

Matthew 15:19 - “For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness, slander.”

Genesis 6:5 & 8:21 - The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually… from his youth.

Ephesians 2:3 - we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

1 Corinthians 2:14 - The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

John 3:27 - John answered, “A person cannot receive even one thing unless it is given him from heaven.”

Romans 9:16 - So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.

Philippians 2:13 - for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

The Holy Bible teaches that TD is indeed FALSE!

Show me

 

[Reformed]

Well I think calling folks totally depraved and deserving of going to hell just about pinnacles the uncharitable assault of a person's character.

You are by definition the worst insulting person here! To tell other people they deserve hell, are no good, and they deserve to actively sin against God for eternity.

Your argument is not with Katarina, it is with Scripture that clearly, and unequivocally, teaches that the sinner is fallen and totally depraved in thought and deed, and as a consequence of that fallen nature faces an eternity apart from God in hell. I would provide the scriptures that have been cited previously but it's folly to do so because you will not read or interact with them in an honest manner.

P.S. Edited to correct grammar.

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

Show me

read #30 for starters...

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Show me

And if I wasn’t totally depraved, what do I need Jesus for? I can save myself then, any time I want

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

Your argument is not with Katarina, it is with Scripture that clearly, and unequivocally, teaches that the sinner is fallen and totally depraved in thought and deed, and as a consequence of that fallen nature faces an eternity apart from God in hell. I would provide the scriptures that have been provided previously but it's folly to do so because you will not read or interact with them in an honest manner.

NO the Bible does NOT say what you assume it does! It is warped "Reformed/Calvinistic" teaching that promotes this complete nonsense! These "systems" actually make God to be the author of sin, and make Him a monster who sends people to hell, when the Bible very clearly says, "I take NO PLEASURE in the death of the wicked", as do some!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

read #30 for starters...

Again, if I can save myself then why do I need Jesus?