Is man restricted to his own Nature?

[Saved-By-Grace]

And if I wasn’t totally depraved, what do I need Jesus for? I can save myself then, any time I want

Wrong again! Jesus is the only Saviour that every sinner needs. Read the Bible, where Jesus Himself says in John 16, "Nevertheless, I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you. And when he comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment: concerning sin, because they do not believe in me; concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father, and you will see me no longer; concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged." (7-11). the "world" here is the entire human race. If as you say ALL are "totally depraved", then how can they ever respond to the "convicting" of the Holy Spirit, which Jesus says they CAN!

 

[TCassidy]

The Holy Bible teaches that TD is indeed FALSE!

So, I have asked three times which part of man you do not believe is ruined by the fall. Is man's body still perfectly sinless? Man's soul? Man's spirit? Which part of fallen, lost man do you believe to still be sinless?

 

[Reformed]

SBG, I HATE labels. A precious few are necessary IMO e.g. Trinitarian.

Hank, I mean no disrespect in my reply, but it is almost impossible to have a meaningful theological discussion without adopting some labels, if for no other reason than sheer brevity. For instance, let us say we are going to do away with the label "Calvinist". Does that mean everytime we discuss the theological position that is Calvinism we have to say, "the doctrine that teaches that God has predestined His Elect from all eternity and saves them by calling them in time through the preaching of the Gospel"? I know. I am being a bit facetious here, but that is for effect. Hopefully, you get my point. If you go to any respected seminary on either side of the debate they are replete with labels. It is just the way it is.

I am not saying this is your reason, but often times individuals refuse labels because they do not want to go on the record about what they believe. They leave themselves an out, just like a politician. In other words, they do not want to be wrong. Now, I agree that we can "ism" things to death. That happens when a person has not taken the time (or does not possess the ability) to reason from scripture on a point of doctrine. It is easier to jump on someone else's bandwagon than to put together a biblical defense.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

NO the Bible does NOT say what you assume it does! It is warped "Reformed/Calvinistic" teaching that promotes this complete nonsense! These "systems" actually make God to be the author of sin, and make Him a monster who sends people to hell, when the Bible very clearly says, "I take NO PLEASURE in the death of the wicked", as do some!

Define sin... so that I may know if God is the author of it...or not

 

[Reformed]

So, I have asked three times which part of man you do not believe is ruined by the fall. Is man's body still perfectly sinless? Man's soul? Man's spirit? Which part of fallen, lost man do you believe to still be sinless?

So, you will ask ad infinitum, ad nauseam and you will still not get an answer from him. It is as though you never typed those words. Why? Because you own him lock, stock, and barrel once he answers truthfully. Game, set, match.

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

Define sin... so that I may know if God is the author of it...or not

"Reformed/Calvinistic", theology teaches that God has ordained all that comes to pass. As Dr Wayne Grudem puts it.

"In Spite of All of the Foregoing Statements, We Have to Come to the Point Where We Confess That We Do Not Understand How It Is That God Can Ordain That We Carry Out Evil Deeds and Yet Hold Us Accountable for Them and Not be Blamed Himself: We can affirm that all of these things are true, because Scripture teaches them. But Scripture does not tell us exactly how God brings this situation about or how it can be that God holds us accountable for what he ordains to come to pass. Here Scripture is silent, and we have to agree with Berkhof that ultimately “the problem of God’s relation to sin remains a mystery" (Systematic Theology, p.331. emphasis mine)

God "ordains" that we carry out evil deeds, and then after following His "ordination", He holds us accountable? Wow, if this is not making God the "author" of sin, then I don't know what it means. for sure the Holy Bible does NOT teach this anywhere. But for those who hold that God has "decreed everything that comes to pass", this is what they would have to teach.

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

So, I have asked three times which part of man you do not believe is ruined by the fall. Is man's body still perfectly sinless? Man's soul? Man's spirit? Which part of fallen, lost man do you believe to still be sinless?

TD as I understand it, is also known as "total inability", whereby the sinners "will" is in "bondage" to sin, that they cannot respond to the internal "call" to repent by the Holy Spirit. Therefore, the Holy Spirit first needs to "regenerate" the sinners heart, enabling them to respond to this "call". So it is man's "soul" that is still after the fall, capable of responding to the Holy Spirit to repentance.

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

So, you will ask ad infinitum, ad nauseam and you will still not get an answer from him. It is as though you never typed those words. Why? Because you own him lock, stock, and barrel once he answers truthfully. Game, set, match.

Typical "reformed" cop-out from Bible Truth!

 

[TCassidy]

Did you read the conversations that Jesus had with the Jews? Where he called them "vipers", etc, etc? And Paul speaks of "doctrines of demons"? I am not alone!

You are not Jesus. You are not even Paul. You are not speaking scripture. You are not writing inspired scripture.

There is much heresy and utter nonsense being posted on places like this!

Yes, and most of it is coming from you!

"Reformed/Calvinistic", theology teaches that God has ordained all that comes to pass.

Tha's a lie. Some confused "Calvinists" may say that, but it is poppycock!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Wrong again! Jesus is the only Saviour that every sinner needs. Read the Bible, where Jesus Himself says in John 16, "Nevertheless, I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you. And when he comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment: concerning sin, because they do not believe in me; concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father, and you will see me no longer; concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged." (7-11). the "world" here is the entire human race. If as you say ALL are "totally depraved", then how can they ever respond to the "convicting" of the Holy Spirit, which Jesus says they CAN!

Wait a minute, I believe in God and I believe in sin...and there is many times I choose to sin, indeed I really enjoy sin. I could not attain things if I did not sin. So you are telling me first that I can save myself...at anytime but then the clocks ticking ie don’t sin least you go to hell. So I can’t act on my instincts, I can’t elevate myself in a sinful world blah blah. Well then, why do I need Christ? Sounds very Catholic to me...all you need is a priest in a box to take confession and absolve people of sin. And that stinks of man made religion.

 

[TCassidy]

TD as I understand it,

That is the problem. You don't understand it at all. Total Depravity teaches that ALL of man, the TOTAL man, his body, his soul, and his spirit, have been affected by the fall. That no part of man is still in sinless perfection.

So, again I ask you, if Total Depravity is wrong, which part of you, your body, soul, or spirit are you claiming is unfallen and still in sinless perfection?

Typical "reformed" cop-out from Bible Truth!

You are the one who keeps dodging the question and refuses to honestly answer it.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

You are not Jesus. You are not even Paul. You are not speaking scripture. You are not writing inspired scripture.

Yes, and most of it is coming from you!

Tha's a lie. Some confused "Calvinists" may say that, but it is poppycock!

Better, it is a lie to foment arguement

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

You are not Jesus. You are not even Paul. You are not speaking scripture. You are not writing inspired scripture.

Yes, and most of it is coming from you!

Tha's a lie. Some confused "Calvinists" may say that, but it is poppycock!

So you saying that there are some things that God does not "pre-ordain"?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

"Reformed/Calvinistic", theology teaches that God has ordained all that comes to pass. As Dr Wayne Grudem puts it.

"In Spite of All of the Foregoing Statements, We Have to Come to the Point Where We Confess That We Do Not Understand How It Is That God Can Ordain That We Carry Out Evil Deeds and Yet Hold Us Accountable for Them and Not be Blamed Himself: We can affirm that all of these things are true, because Scripture teaches them. But Scripture does not tell us exactly how God brings this situation about or how it can be that God holds us accountable for what he ordains to come to pass. Here Scripture is silent, and we have to agree with Berkhof that ultimately “the problem of God’s relation to sin remains a mystery" (Systematic Theology, p.331. emphasis mine)

God "ordains" that we carry out evil deeds, and then after following His "ordination", He holds us accountable? Wow, if this is not making God the "author" of sin, then I don't know what it means. for sure the Holy Bible does NOT teach this anywhere. But for those who hold that God has "decreed everything that comes to pass", this is what they would have to teach.

I would through that book out if I were you... the guys a kook

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

That is the problem. You don't understand it at all. Total Depravity teaches that ALL of man, the TOTAL man, his body, his soul, and his spirit, have been affected by the fall. That no part of man is still in sinless perfection.

So, again I ask you, if Total Depravity is wrong, which part of you, your body, soul, or spirit are you claiming is unfallen and still in sinless perfection?

You are the one who keeps dodging the question and refuses to honestly answer it.

You invent your own definitions of what Total Depravity means. It is also known as "total inability"!

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

I would through that book out if I were you... the guys a kook

He is a reformed/Calvinist!

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

You are not Jesus. You are not even Paul. You are not speaking scripture. You are not writing inspired scripture.

Yes, and most of it is coming from you!

Tha's a lie. Some confused "Calvinists" may say that, but it is poppycock!

No need to speak foolishly!

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

Wait a minute, I believe in God and I believe in sin...and there is many times I choose to sin, indeed I really enjoy sin. I could not attain things if I did not sin. So you are telling me first that I can save myself...at anytime but then the clocks ticking ie don’t sin least you go to hell. So I can’t act on my instincts, I can’t elevate myself in a sinful world blah blah. Well then, why do I need Christ? Sounds very Catholic to me...all you need is a priest in a box to take confession and absolve people of sin. And that stinks of man made religion.

This is the double-talk of the Westminster Confession of Faith:

"God from all eternity did by the most and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin; nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established."

So, here we have God "ordaining" whatsoever (everything) that comes to pass, and then they try to wriggle out, by saying it does not make God the author of sin! If God ordains ALL THINGS, then this MUST include sin, or else it is NOT all things!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

He is a reformed/Calvinist!

Thank God I’m not...nor is Cassidy. He represents the Particular Baptists and more like Old School Baptists that I am affiliated with. Rather than explain it, I will have Tom do it.

 

[TCassidy]

No need to speak foolishly!

Comparing yourself to Jesus or to Paul was what was foolish.