Is man restricted to his own Nature?

[MB]

No, that is an accurate assessment of your idea that mankind is not fallen. It is a denial of the Inspiration of Genesis chapter 3.

Adam sinned and that sin causes all men to be born in sin. We all have a propensity to sin yes and we do die. Our spirit is considerd dead though the flesh cannot live with out the spirit. Go figure the spirit quickens the flesh. We did not fall because we were never perfect as was Adam. We were not in heaven and you still haven't told what we were suppose to fall from.
MB

 

[Reformed]

No, they don't. They are in free-fall. There is no ceiling.

Not to turn this into a physics class, but Tom is 100% correct. In a microgravity environment, there is no up or down. When in orbit around a great enough mass, objects are in a perpetual state of free fall, not weightlessness.

 

[Reformed]

So which part of man is not fallen? His body? His soul? His spirit?

We dichotomists remove one of those choices. Just trying to simplify things.

 

[TCassidy]

I was asked, during my ordination examination, if I was a dichotomist or a trichotomist. I thought about it for a moment then said, "I am either an expanded dichotomist or a limited trichotomist." They all looked at me, then looked at each other, and the chairman said, "I think we better move along!"

 

[Katarina Von Bora]

Total depravity is a false doctrine.

Only to a Pelagian.

 

[Katarina Von Bora]

What fall would that be? Surely you don't mean heaven. Satan fell from heaven. A couple of mighty men fell in the book of Daniel. You'll have to be more specific. One guy lost all his hair and it fell to the Ground.
Did some man fall apart?
You see there is no fall of man in scripture. I know some say Adam fell but no one seems to know from where he fell. Men use this term all the time. Their claim is that man is a born sinner but being born in sin and being a born sinner are two different things. The first is true the second was made up by Augustine.

Yes the word does say this but you have over looked what was said just a few sentences before this verse.
1Co 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
Salvation isn't about the deep things of God. Baby chiristians don't understand the deep things of God. We all start out on milk and gradually we begin to eat the meat. I'm surprised you didn't know that.

You really need to stop reading all that Calvinist literature and just stick to scripture alone. God's Word never fails.
MB

You are correct about the Bible never failing. But the rest simply is not true.

Your eisegesis is showing.

 

[Katarina Von Bora]

T. Cassidy wrote;

I can't think of a more ridiculous theory. When man's will changes with discovery such as when man for the first time hears the gospel. Regardless of whether or not it's in his nature. Man's nature does not govern what he can or can't do. No where in scripture is it ever shown that man cannot come to God. In fact man is invited.
Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
many will say man cannot come to God unless he is drawn not realizing that all men are drawn Jn 12:32

Man has already done what is not in His nature. Men can fly. Men can swim under water with out coming up for a breath. In fact men walk on the ceiling in a space craft. To compare man's will to that of a fly is an insult to God's creation. Most of all man can and does learn of new things everyday that he could not do until he learns of them.

Total depravity is not in man's nature. Depraved yes we are before Salvation, but total depravity does not allow for Conscience. Conscience is that which causes man to become guilty before God. It's what conviction is all about. Once we are saved we have all ready been forgiven and conviction can only happen when we sin after that.
MB

The Bible teaches total depravity.


Ecclesiastes 7:29 - “See, this alone I found, that God made man upright, but they have sought out many schemes.”

Romans 5:12,19 - sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned… by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners

Psalm 143:2 - Enter not into judgment with your servant, for no one living is righteous before you.

Romans 3:23 - for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God

Romans 3:9-12 - What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.”

1 John 1:8,10 - If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we say we have not sinned, we make [God] a liar, and his word is not in us

Mark 7:21-23 - “For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person.”

Jeremiah 17:9 - “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?”

Matthew 15:19 - “For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness, slander.”

Genesis 6:5 & 8:21 - The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually… from his youth.

Ephesians 2:3 - we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

1 Corinthians 2:14 - The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

John 3:27 - John answered, “A person cannot receive even one thing unless it is given him from heaven.”

Romans 9:16 - So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.

Philippians 2:13 - for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

Total depravity is a false doctrine.

very true indeed!

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

Only to a Pelagian.

more rubbish!

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

John 5:25, (read in context)

"Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live"

Here we have the words of Jesus Christ, God Incarnate, the Highest Authority on ALL matters! Read very carefully what He says here. The "dead", which is here for the "entire human race", Jesus says, are capable of HEARING the spiritual "voice", through the preaching of the Gospel Message, of Jesus Himself. To be able to "hear", in the inner person, this Gospel, one has to have the capacity to respond, by either "accepting", or "rejecting" this Message. In verses 39-40 in this same chapter, Jesus tells the Jews, that they were "UNWILLING to come to Him" for ETERNAL LIFE, and this was when they were searching the Scriptures! Not, as some have twisted the meaning here, to mean "cannot" come, something that the Greek does NOT allow! For those who suppose that when Jesus says, "when the dead will hear the voice", it means only the "elect", they have a problem! Because what Jesus goes on to say, is "those who hear will live", which clearly says to the honest, open mind, that there are some, who will NOT "hear", or "accept" the Massage of salvation!

This passage from Paul's 2nd Epistle to the Thessalonians, will show what the Bible teaches man is capable of doing, spiritually, which would not be possible, if they were "totally depraved"!

"The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness." (2:9-12)

Notice very carefully. These people who are "perishing", which cannot be the "elect", and here said to do so, NOT because God does not want to save them, BUT, because they "refuse (or reject)" the Truth of the Gospel, "so that they may be saved"! This means that they would have to have a spiritual capacity within them, to "reject" this Gospel. It goes on to show why they will be condemned. "they did not BELIEVE the truth", something that is ONLY of the "spiritual" nature, again, if they were "totally depraved", they could not be guilty of! Not that we "could not believe", as some would corrupt it to mean, but "did not", where the Greek shows it was their CHOICE!

Jesus speaks of the Coming of the Holy Spirit, Who, when He has come, "He will convict the world of sin", that is, "the entire human race", BECAUSE..."they do not believe in Me" (John 16:8-9). Again, not "cannot believe", which is what some would have us believe, but "DO NOT believe", because the CHOOSE not to, which is what the Greek here says!

 

[TCassidy]

Why do the dead hear? Because God gave them new life.

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

Why do the dead hear? Because God gave them new life.

NO, because God created my in His IMAGE, which means that he has moral qualities! We are NOT a bunch of machines! Can you answer my Bible references?

So God gives them "new life" BEFORE they hear the Gospel and are born-again? and then they are "born again", which makes it TWICE, as NEW LIFE is born again!

 

[TCassidy]

NO, because God created my in His IMAGE, which means that he has moral qualities!

Yes, man has a moral sense. But he always chooses wrong until he is regenerated and indwelt by the Holy Spirit of God to be his Guide.

We are NOT a bunch of machines!

I don't recall ever saying we are.

Can you answer my Bible references?

I did. They hear because they are no longer dead, God has given them New Life in Christ. "His sheep hear His voice" not a bunch of goats (John 10:27).

So God gives them "new life" BEFORE they hear the Gospel and are born-again?

No, God uses Gospel preaching to draw sinners to Christ (John 12:32), and then regenerates them so they can understand, believe, repent, and obey.

and then they are "born again", which makes it TWICE, as NEW LIFE is born again!

Again you say the same nonsense I have already corrected you on. They hear the Gospel, are drawn to Christ, are regenerated (big word that just means "born again") and are thus enabled to understand, believe, repent, and obey, which they couldn't do before. His sheep hear His voice. (Not the goats.) His sheep understand. (Not the goats.) His sheep believe. (Not the goats.) His sheep repent. (Not the goats.) His sheep obey. (Not the goats.)

 

[Katarina Von Bora]

more rubbish!

Are you not able to have a discussion without rancor?

Ephesians 4:29English Standard Version (ESV)

29 Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for building up, as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear.

If it continues, I will report it.

 

[Katarina Von Bora]

NO, because God created my in His IMAGE, which means that he has moral qualities! We are NOT a bunch of machines! Can you answer my Bible references?

So God gives them "new life" BEFORE they hear the Gospel and are born-again? and then they are "born again", which makes it TWICE, as NEW LIFE is born again!

No, I don't think so. I can't imagine Jesus speaking the way you do. Name calling and assaulting a person's character is uncharitable and violates scripture.

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

Are you not able to have a discussion without rancor?

Ephesians 4:29English Standard Version (ESV)

29 Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for building up, as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear.

If it continues, I will report it.

You can report it if you wish. When people distort the plain teachings of the Holy Bible, because of personal theological bias, and keep posting their "reasoning", then it is quite right to refer to such as "rubbish", as it has NO bearing on what the Bible actually teaches, but is for the promoting of one's "theology", if it can even be called that!

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

No, I don't think so. I can't imagine Jesus speaking the way you do. Name calling and assaulting a person's character is uncharitable and violates scripture.

Did you read the conversations that Jesus had with the Jews? Where he called them "vipers", etc, etc? And Paul speaks of "doctrines of demons"? I am not alone! There is much heresy and utter nonsense being posted on places like this!

 

[Katarina Von Bora]

You can report it if you wish. When people distort the plain teachings of the Holy Bible, because of personal theological bias, and keep posting their "reasoning", then it is quite right to refer to such as "rubbish", as it has NO bearing on what the Bible actually teaches, but is for the promoting of one's "theology", if it can even be called that!

You missed all of that scripture I posted? Reformed theology is true.

You can disagree all you want, but I won't allow you to call either myself or the Bible rubbish. Count on it.

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

You missed all of that scripture I posted? Reformed theology is true.

You can disagree all you want, but I won't allow you to call either myself or the Bible rubbish. Count on it.

Show me ONE Scripture that teaches that God "rejects" any sinner, without first giving them the opportunity to repent? If you were to read the Bible without your "reformed theology" understanding, you will see MANY places where God encourages sinners to repent and live, rather than die. He very clearly says in Ezekiel, "Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, declares the Lord GOD, and not rather that he should turn from his way and live?" (18:23). This, my friend is the heart of God, which the "reformed" have distorted by their warped "theology"! Where in this passage, do we read of God simple "rejecting" these sinners? Or, as the Hebrew scholar, Gesenius puts it in his lexicon, "not willing"! God does not WILL the death of the sinful wicked! Ponder on this!

 

[thatbrian]

Why do the dead hear? Because God gave them new life.

Yes. Jesus came for that very purpose.

16And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up. And as was his custom, he went to the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and he stood up to read. 17And the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was given to him. He unrolled the scroll and found the place where it was written,

18“The Spirit of the Lord is upon me,
because he has anointed me
to proclaim good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim liberty to the captives
and recovering of sight to the blind,
to set at liberty those who are oppressed,
19to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.”