Featured Can We Talk?

Perhaps the Calvinists need to be more aware of their own hygiene so they don't stink so badly?

 

First, I am only addressing the opening post. I did not read the following pages of post.

Yes, I would love to discuss the subject of the validity or not of the TULIP. I believe once a person is saved, they are saved forever (OSAS) so it does not seem productive to discuss the distinction between OSAS and the "P".

And I also think it would be unproductive to try and discuss the other four all at the same time. Perhaps you could present your view of Total Spiritual Inability due to the Fall. My view is the Fall resulted in Limited Spiritual ability, the fallen are able to understand spiritual milk, but not spiritual meat, 1 Corinthians 2:14-3:3.

 

A general difficulty of "talking" is that which the Scriptures state is more often added too by those who deny the doctrines of Grace.

For example:
There is no mention or even evidence of "prevenient/preceding grace" yet Wesley invented it and it has become a standard "doctrine" taught. Why? When there is no Scripture support!

Another example is that of "limited atonement." There is no statement of Scripture support, but rather great support for limited redemption. Why is it taught? Because (imo) it is a hold over teaching by the RCC designed to hold people enslaved to that bunch. The reformers followed along (as evidenced by the treatment of Separatists, and others) out of the desire to control, or from the desire not to be excluded or their credentials being removed.

Therefore, ALL discussion must be filled with proofs from Scriptures, and agreement that the Scriptures mean exactly what is stated and not forced into some bias demanded by tradition - be it Wesleyan or Reform.

 

rsr,

Do you remebmer the poster that was seeking to understand Calvinism and Arminianism, and I
treated him shamelessly? (I believe God has forgiven me.)

You said something very enlighteneing to me.

Something about Jesus accepting those who had more or less knowledge than others.

I want to add, "in no wise will He cast out."

Will you please recall and post what you said to me. I think others could really benefit from your exact words.

 

Romans 5:12

I like Young's Literal:
Romans 5:12 because of this, even as through one man the sin did enter into the world, and through the sin the death; and thus to all men the death did pass through, for that all did sin;

My view : aorist verbs - IOW We were all there in Adam when he sinned we sinned.
We came into the world dead, sinners.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

The issue is pinpointing the passing (in this life) from death to life.

We can't think in God's manner who stepped out of eternity into the time continuum.


HankD

 

If all of man is ruined by the fall, there would be no man left and nothing to save, hence it is ruined and destroyed.

Its not at all like if a person is equated to MURDER. God is not going to SAVE murder.

All people are a value to God so much so that my faith requires me to believe whom I which would call the least important, the least of my brethren to equate that to Jesus Christ.



"It does not mean every person is as bad as he/she could possibly be"

I would say any Good that is not in the service of God or that can't be recognized by God as Good is simply EVIL.

Lets not fall into this hole of where there is people out there in the world who do "GOOD" but its not actual AGAPE.

Isaiah 5

20Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil;
Who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness;
Who substitute bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!

If we do anything that is not in service to God then indeed they really are as bad as he/she could possibly be.

 

Brian, I think maybe you misunderstood Tom.

anyway - now we can be one with Christ instead of Adam - Christ lives, I live, he is sinless, God sees me as sinless.

Romans 5
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

HankD

 

There is no support in scripture for Total Spiritual Inability. The "T" doctrine asserts fallen people, unless enabled by "irresistible grace" are unable to seek God or trust in Christ.

Here is a snippet from the Reformed Doctrine of Predestination, Chapter 10, Total inability.

However, Matthew 23:13 teaches fallen people were seeking God effectively, for they were in the process of entering the kingdom of heaven, when they were prevented by false teachers and false doctrine. Therefore our fallen inability is not total, but our ability is limited by our fallen nature.

Now many verses are cited to support this doctrine, such as Romans 3:11 which states "There is none that seeks God." What Calvinism does is add "at any time" making the statement total, but that addition is not in scripture, not contextual. The actual idea of the passage is no one seeks God when sinning, therefore we are all under sin because no one seeks God all the time.

Another tactic is to redefine what it means to be dead in sin, claiming that means a spiritual dead person cannot seek God, but again that is not supported by scripture. The people of Matthew 23:13 were spiritually dead, unregenerate, yet were entering heaven.

Last point, 1 Corinthians 2:14 says a "natural man" cannot understand "the things of the Spirit." Again Calvinism rewrites this to say cannot understand "all the things of the Spirit." But that again is not what it says and contrary to that misinterpretation the context (2:14-3:3) indicates "men of flesh" can understand spiritual milk.

Thus, there is no support in scripture for the doctrine of Total Spiritual Inability, but there is support for Limited Spiritual Ability.

 

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

see - Grk. - eido I don't like quoting Strong's but in this case I will.
Strong 1492 eido
Meaning: 1) to see 1a) to perceive with the eyes 1b) to perceive by any of the senses 1c) to perceive, notice, discern, discover 1d) to see 1d1) i.e. to turn the eyes, the mind, the attention to anything 1d2) to pay attention, observe 1d3) to see about something 1d31) i.e. to ascertain what must be done about it 1d4) to inspect, examine 1d5) to look at, behold 1e) to experience any state or condition 1f) to see i.e. have an interview with, to visit 2) to know 2a) to know of anything 2b) to know, i.e. get knowledge of, understand, perceive 2b1) of any fact 2b2) the force and meaning of something which has definite meaning 2b3) to know how, to be skilled in 2c) to have regard for one, cherish, pay attention to (1Th. 5:12)

the word "see" in koine has the same idiomatic range as in English.

e.g. To say to someone "I see" not only says "I see the book" but "I see what you are saying" or "I understand what you are saying".

So in terms of perception of any kind - we cannot understand and/or find the kingdom of God in an unregenerate state.

BUT, I can entertain Van's idea because of the role of the Holy Spirit who convicts/reproves ALL individuals coming into this world - of sin.

ASV John 1:9 There was the true light, even the light which lighteth every man, coming into the world.

John 16
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

Reproval/conviction of sin is where it seems to begin and that pre-regeneration.

HankD

 

Reformed/Calvinists not the same thing.....
BOTh would agree with the doctrines of Grace though!

 

Per Paul, none of us seek after God, all of us have turned aside, so think the scriptures, and the Holy Spirit, would disagree with your understanding here!

 

Everyone knows that already. The real question is, what happens after regeneration? namely does the person who is "Saved" still sin, and sin sometimes knowingly? I say YES

 

Only sinless perfection second act of grave would disagree!
And those who mix up good works and grace to form a different Gospel.