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Atonement
- Thread starter JonC
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Martin, you seem to assume God cursed the Son as if in vengeance.
Does not the word “cursed” (Galatians 3) also mean one doomed to destruction, one under divine judgement?
When Christ (took, bore, became) sin, Devine judgement was assigned, just as the Scriptures state.
What is not shown in Scriptures was some vengeance poured out by God as a result, for Christ being made without sin can and did take the judgment for sin and it result in God being pleased, not vengeful.
To assume the definition of vengeance in this verse (related to one hanging on a tree) is inconsistent with the statements concerning the crucifixion in other places. The proper definition must be one under divine judgement.
Corinthians states that God made Him sin. (2 Corinthians 5:21).
It makes no sense for God to have vengeance for what He (God) did.
Again, God making the one who knew no sin, sin was pleasing to God.
Divine judgment was assigned, not vengeance.
Well I do not know what I can do to help you other than to suggest that you keep reading Deuteronomy 21:22-23 and Galatians 3:13 until the truth dawns.
You seem to pit Scriptures as refuting Scriptures by insisting on a definition of vengeance.Well I do not know what I can do to help you other than to suggest that you keep reading Deuteronomy 21:22-23 and Galatians 3:13 until the truth dawns.
Such is not good when presenting.
Rather, Scripture supports, defines, and clarifies other Scripture, which means vengeance as a definition is unsupportable.
I don't know how I can help you except suggest you read Deuteronomy 5, Romans 3-8, Psalm 22, Isaiah 53 and Galatians, praying God opens your eyes to the truth of Scripture.Well I do not know what I can do to help you other than to suggest that you keep reading Deuteronomy 21:22-23 and Galatians 3:13 until the truth dawns.
You see, brother, the difference is you take a few verses and place them into your theory rather than taking Scripture in its own context. This is why you point to a few verses while I am forced to suggest a greater reading of the Scripture your theory takes so lightly. I pray you will one day be able to allow Scripture to dictate your belief rather than leaning on what you feel God has implied.
And lest you forget, I don't have an issue with the PSA (as you called it) of Justin Martyr or of the Early Church Fathers (not even the PSA of Origen, although I think he was wrong in his articulation of the Ransom Theory). I don't even have a problem with Martin Luther's PSA. It is your PSA that I find anti-biblical.
Well here you are, JonC; let's cut to the chase. Answer the following plain and simple questions.
1. Was Christ made a curse?
2. For whom was He made a curse?
3. Who cursed Him?
And I agree with Justin Martyr and Martin Luther.
'For Christ is innocent as concerning His own person, and therefore He ought not to have been hanged on a tree: but because, according to the law of Moses, every thief and every malefactor ought to be hanged, therefore Christ also, according to the law, ought to be hanged, for He sustained the person of a sinner and a thief, not of one, but of all sinners and thieves, and therefore guilty of death and everlasting damnation. But Christ took our sins upon Him, and for them died upon the cross; therefore it behoveth that He should become a transgressor, and (as Isaiah saith, chapter liii) "be reckoned among the transgressors".........................But some will say, it is absurd and slanderous to call the Son of God a cursed sinner. I answer, if thou wilt deny Him to be a sinner and accursed, deny also that He was crucified and dead.' [Martin Luther]
I agree with Martyr on this topic, and insofar as Penal Substitution is concerned I agree with Luther that the focus was Christ Himself and not punishment (Christ, by His divinity and merit outweighed the wrath and sin against mankind).
1. Was Christ made a curse? Yes, Christ became a curse for us (he came in the likeness of sinful flesh, bore our sins in His flesh).
2. For whom was He made a curse? For us.
3. Who cursed Him? No one cursed Him. He became a cure for us. He was made a curse for us.
Christ is sinless. Those who esteemed Him as stricken by God and hanged Him on the cross were wrong. But this was God's will that Christ suffer and die, taking upon Himself the sin of mankind - for without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. Christ was lifted up as our representative. He suffered and died, the weight of our sin bearing upon Him, for us. Christ became a curse. He bore the curse of mankind for mankind. And by His stripes we are healed.
Cutting to the chase, I believe that your version of PSA becomes heresy because of the degree to which you take the theory. You add to it answers to questions neither asked nor answered in Scripture. Origen's heresy was that God paid a ransom to Satan. Your heresy is that God cursed Jesus. Scripture, however, says that Jesus became a curse, was made a curse for us, to ransom us from the bondage of sin and death. You, just like Origen, err by creating a context foreign to Scripture. Your "religion" gets in the way of the truth.
The best I can come up with.
For the wages of sin is death; Rom 6:23
For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 1 Cor 15:3
All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. Isa 53:6
Well I do not know what I can do to help you other than to suggest that you keep reading Deuteronomy 21:22-23 and Galatians 3:13 until the truth dawns.
Let me dovetail this in and see if it applies to your thought.
Duet 32:35,36 To me belongeth vengeance, and recompence; their foot shall slide in due time: for the day of their calamity is at hand, and the things that shall come upon them make haste. For the LORD shall judge his people, and repent himself for his servants, when he seeth that their power is gone, and there is none shut up, or left.
Did not God take vengeance upon himself by sending his Son, through woman, in the flesh, to become a curse for us in order to gather his people unto himself? The Son being paid our sin debt in our stead?
I think this is about the best there is. And even this does not affirm PSA as presented on this forum.
Christians (even those who reject PSA) believe that the wages of sin is death, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.
God cannot take vengeance upon himself. Vengeance belongs to God. He has the authority to recompence. "Vengeance is mine, I will repay."
God cannot have poured out vengeance upon the Son, because the Son was God in the flesh.
As the song says,
- For me it was in the garden
He prayed: “Not My will, but Thine.”
He had no tears for His own griefs,
But sweat drops of blood for mine. - In pity angels beheld Him,
And came from the world of light
To comfort Him in the sorrows
He bore for my soul that night. - He took my sins and my sorrows,
He made them His very own;
He bore the burden to Calv’ry,
And suffered and died alone.
OK. Let's try again. Read Deuteronomy 21:22-23 and tell me: who cursed Christ?
Whether you realize it or not, you are struggling with context. Hanging someone on a tree does not make God curse them. Under the Law, those who were hung on a tree were esteemed cursed of God. It was not something that caused a curse, like a curse in witchcraft or voodoo.
Deuteronomy 21:22-23 "If a man has committed a sin worthy of death and he is put to death, and you hang him on a tree, his corpse shall not hang all night on the tree, but you shall surely bury him on the same day (for he who is hanged is accursed of God), so that you do not defile your land which the LORD your God gives you as an inheritance.
The context here is an explanation for why the corpse shall not hang all night on the tree (see Joshua 8, 10, and John 19).
Jesus did not commit a sin worthy of death, but men esteemed him as stricken of God and numbered him among the transgressors, and at the hands of godless men he was crucified.
Galatians 3:13
You believe the verse says God cursed Jesus rather than He redeemed us by being made a curse for us????
I wonder if you would like to look at the verses in Deuteronomy again and tell me where the word 'esteemed' is. I have highlighted the most relevant portion for you
Deuteronomy 21:22-23 "If a man has committed a sin worthy of death and he is put to death, and you hang him on a tree, his corpse shall not hang all night on the tree, but you shall surely bury him on the same day (for he who is hanged is accursed of God), so that you do not defile your land which the LORD your God gives you as an inheritance.
Quite. But that does not alter the fact that on the cross Christ suffered the curse of God for us. Since you say you agree with Luther on PSA, let's hear from him: 'Paul therefore doth very well allege this general sentence out of Moses as concerning Christ. "Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree." But Christ hath hanged on a tree, therefore Christ was accursed of God' [Luther on Galatians 3:13]. Do you agree with Luther? Yes or no.
Certainly the Lord Jesus was/is 'holy, harmless undefiled' and certainly men quite correctly esteemed Him 'stricken, smitten by God and afflicted' because that is what He was. 'It pleased the LORD to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief.' Certainly also He was crucified at the hands of godless men, but the Holy Spirit is content to lay the responsibility squarely upon God.
Who bruised the Christ? Who put Him to grief? Yahweh did!
BTW, since God Himself supernaturally turned day into night while Christ hung upon the tree (Mark 15:33 etc.), He did actually hang there at night. He really did carry that curse for us.
It would be great to discuss the meaning of these amazing facts and glory in the amazing love of the Father who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all [edited]
same thing.
I understand you read it as the same thing, but the fact is it isn't. That's my point. So many here (not all who would defend PSA, but several) cannot read Scripture except through their own presuppositions. Their blindness is nothing short of biblical illiteracy.
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I already told you. Just as Isaiah wrote - those men who rejected Christ ESTEEMED him as stricken and afflicted. Their hanging him on the Cross testifies to this.
You change the identity of the godless men to God.
I suppose next you are going to tell me that God cursed all of those Christians who were crucified by Rome.
I'm not blind enough to miss the shenanigans you play with the text.
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