The Wise Men

[Deacon]

Not sure why one would zero in on the listed women's being "unwholesome." What about the many listed men who were? Or Leah, who's not listed despite the notorious way she entered the lineage?

"Unwholesome" may have been a poor choice of words, perhaps 'unlikely' would have better.
There were women unlikely to hold a prominent place in the Messiah's lineage, or at least unlikely to be mentioned.
Find another biblical genealogy that mentions a number of women - it's rare
Matthew included these women for a reason
He picked women who did not hold a high position in Jewish culture, unlikely candidates of faith - and yet there they are!

God lead the magi to worship the infant Jesus

God picked you and me too, unlikely characters.

Go, therefore, and make disciples all nations (Matt 28:19)

Rob

 

[robycop3]

It is one of those "depends on who you ask" questions.

The date of 4 BC comes primarily from Josephus who says he died after a lunar eclipse. But others say as late as 1 AD.

An eclipse did take place on March 13, 4 BC, about a month before Passover, and this eclipse may have been the one referred to by Josephus.

However there were other eclipses during this same period, in 5 BC and two in 1 BC.

The 4 BC date is augmented by his sons dating their rule from 4 BC, but Herod suffered from a terrible illness for a long time prior to his death, and his sons may have begun their rule while he was still alive, though unable to rule in his own right.

1 AD seems to fit the biblical chronology a bit better, but it really doesn't make much difference. It is not a hill I am willing to die on.

I estimate Jesus' birth during 6 BC, based upon the first time Quirinius was ruler of the Judea-Syria area, which many researchers say began in 7 BC. (During that time, he peacefully ended a revolt by a tribe called "Homodensians".). Jesus' 6 BC birth would support the 4BC death estimate of Herod.

I also believe Jesus was crucified in AD 28 unless/until I'm shown otherwise by believable evidence. This is based upon the fact that passover began on Wednesday, Apr. 28 on our calendar that year, & if Jesus was born in 6 BC, He woulda been about 33.5 years old then.

 

[Jerome]

"Unwholesome" may have been a poor choice of words, perhaps 'unlikely' would have better.

Agree.

Go, therefore, and make disciples all nations (Matt 28:19)

Yes, from the beginning that's the message.

 

[TCassidy]

I estimate Jesus' birth during 6 BC, based upon the first time Quirinius was ruler of the Judea-Syria area, which many researchers say began in 7 BC. (During that time, he peacefully ended a revolt by a tribe called "Homodensians".). Jesus' 6 BC birth would support the 4BC death estimate of Herod.

Except the census of Quirinius mentioned by Luke took place in 6 AD, not 6 BC.

I also believe Jesus was crucified in AD 28 unless/until I'm shown otherwise by believable evidence. This is based upon the fact that passover began on Wednesday, Apr. 28 on our calendar that year, & if Jesus was born in 6 BC, He woulda been about 33.5 years old then.

Sorry, but the dates don't match. The only year the dates work is 31 AD.

 

[Yeshua1]

Yes. Wrong assumption.

The majority of the people on earth did not benefit from Daniel's preaching. The majority of people on earth do not have a Messianic tradition that dates back over 2500 years.

Perhaps you don't know what an astrologer was, at that time. Are you committing an anachronistic error of trying to apply modern meaning to an ancient word?

By the way, some of your confusion might be alleviated by reading "The Stars Speak: Astronomy in the Bible" by Dr. Stewart Custer, for over 40 years professor of Bible, theology, and Greek at Bob Jones University.
So you are retracting your claim that they, and presumably the rest of the people in their Christian tradition, are lost? Good. Progress.

Yes, I know your assumption was stupid. I already said so.

Are you, once again, refusing to own your fallacious thesis?

They would have no doubt been exposed tot he Jewish OT scriptures ,and would have known the times as being that for the coming Messiah. they were not worshiping stars as modern astrologers do, but would have seen the Star as a sign of messiah appearing.

 

[robycop3]

Except the census of Quirinius mentioned by Luke took place in 6 AD, not 6 BC.


Sorry, but the dates don't match. The only year the dates work is 31 AD.

I read a paper by archaeologist Sir Wm. Ramsay that Quirinius was first made proconsul of the area in 10 BS, til 4 BC. & was sent back in 6 AD.

We know Jesus was born before Herod's death, which is generally believed to have been in 4 BC.

Also, several censuses, or censii, if one prefers, were carried out during the early years of Augustus' reign. And Quirinius was Augie's right-hand man long as they both lived.

(An Egyptian papyrus from 104 AD reports the practice of everyone returning to his town of birth for a census indeed was the law, & it was enforced.)

And I thought you believe, like me, that Jesus' passion"/crucifixion occurred on a Wednesday. We know the Jews had observed the first day of passover beginning the previous eve before He was murdered. So, I I was going by the dates of the paschal meal as given by Jewish sources.

 

[TCassidy]

I read a paper by archaeologist Sir Wm. Ramsay that Quirinius was first made proconsul of the area in 10 BS, til 4 BC. & was sent back in 6 AD.

I did too. What he failed to discover was that starting around 11 BC Quirinius was governor of Cilicia and Syria and fought the war against the Homonadenses in the mountains of Galatia and Cilicia until 3 BC.

He then returned to Rome where he was rewarded with a triumph, then in 1 BC became tutor to Augustus' grandson Gaius, and when he was killed in battle he then taught Tiberius.

We know Jesus was born before Herod's death, which is generally believed to have been in 4 BC.

Or 1 AD, as I mentioned in the earlier post.

So, I I was going by the dates of the paschal meal as given by Jewish sources.

Look at the phases of the moon, which the Jews used to determine the exact time of the Passover. The only year that fits is 31 AD.

 

[robycop3]

I did too. What he failed to discover was that starting around 11 BC Quirinius was governor of Cilicia and Syria and fought the war against the Homonadenses in the mountains of Galatia and Cilicia until 3 BC.

He then returned to Rome where he was rewarded with a triumph, then in 1 BC became tutor to Augustus' grandson Gaius, and when he was killed in battle he then taught Tiberius.

Or 1 AD, as I mentioned in the earlier post.

Look at the phases of the moon, which the Jews used to determine the exact time of the Passover. The only year that fits is 31 AD.

We, & others, could discuss this endlessly, but the only sure things we know is that Jesus was born, lived as a man for anout 33.5 years, & died for OUR sins.

 

[David Kent]

The best evidence would show Daniel practiced astrology.

What evidence.

 

[David Kent]

And I thought you believe, like me, that Jesus' passion"/crucifixion occurred on a Wednesday. We know the Jews had observed the first day of passover beginning the previous eve before He was murdered. So, I I was going by the dates of the paschal meal as given by Jewish sources.

Yes I agree that the only day Jesus could be crucified was Wednesday. Th middle of the literal week as well as the prophetic week. There bobo I am agreeing with you for once.

 

[David Kent]

Look at the phases of the moon, which the Jews used to determine the exact time of the Passover. The only year that fits is 31 AD.

I did read once, cannot remember where, that the Priests looked for the new moon when it was expected and blew the trumpet when they saw it and it may not have been on the expected day.

 

[Bro. James]

A lot of this controversy is shrouded in astrological mambo jambo.

Nowhere in scripture are we told to remember Jesus' birth. He did tell us to remember His death--because of our total depravity. This does not diminish the fact of His Virgin Birth.

Now we have manger scenes with wisemen. Most of this stuff comes from our "friends" in the Vatican and her daughters. The Vatican has been corrupted since day one and "in hoc signo vinces".

Herod killing the Jewish males 2 years and under is a serious landmark in the chronology of Jesus' birth and early childhood. There is a remarkable difference between an infant and a young child, having had three. This carries into the world of baptism as well. The same group which gave the mass of christ also gave infant baptism and baptismal regeneration.

Do such things matter any more?

You shall know the Truth--The Truth will make you free.

Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

Bro. James