1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Would an Unregenerate Man Invent "Calvinism"?

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by thatbrian, Dec 26, 2017.

Top Posters
  1. thatbrian

    thatbrian Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2008
    Messages:
    2,686
    Likes Received:
    389
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The natural, unregenerate man, views mankind as unaffected by Adam's sin. He thinks himself able to climb a stairway to heaven (Tower of Babel, not Led Zeppelin) He imagines that his works are able to put himself in right standing before God (Cain), and he bristles at the idea that he needs assistance of any kind.

    It isn't until through the careful study of scripture and/or the hearing of preaching and teaching, applied by the Holy Spirit, that men begin to see their utter weakness, spiritual bankruptcy, and need to be saved.

    The question I pose is, would the 5 points of Calvinism come from the mind of an unregenerate man? Would an unsaved mind naturally develop and promote a system like that? And, on the flipside, would a Pelagian view come naturally to the unregenerated mind?

    Which position represents the natural state of the unregenerated mind, and which stands in complete opposition to it?
     
    #1 thatbrian, Dec 26, 2017
  2. Don

    Don Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2000
    Messages:
    11,048
    Likes Received:
    321
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Not sure of your question. Are you asking if the pelagian position represents the natural state of the unregenerated mind, while the calvinist position stands in opposition (represents the state of a regenerated mind)?
     
    #2 Don, Dec 26, 2017
  3. thatbrian

    thatbrian Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2008
    Messages:
    2,686
    Likes Received:
    389
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Yes. I am saying that the Pelagian perspective comes naturally. You would never have to be an apologist for the Pelagian view to an unbeliever. The natural mind does not object to the Pelagian view.

    On the other hand, the natural mind (In unbelievers and believers) objects to what Paul espoused in Romans, and the views on this matter from Augustine, Luther, Calvin.

    *I'm not saying that anyone with a Pelagian view is not a regenerated Christian. I'm saying that our minds are renewed over time, through God's Word, taught and studied.
     
    #3 thatbrian, Dec 26, 2017
  4. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The lost would never think of calvinism, as that system honors and glorifies God and not ourselves!
     
    #4 Yeshua1, Dec 26, 2017
    • Agree Agree x 1
  5. thatbrian

    thatbrian Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2008
    Messages:
    2,686
    Likes Received:
    389
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I agree, it does give all glory to God, and if that is the case, the opposite can be said of the opposit view.
     
    #5 thatbrian, Dec 26, 2017
  6. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    35,198
    Likes Received:
    3,791
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I'm not sure as to why some Calvinists are not Christians, but Scripture teaches us that this is to be expected. If you are referring to matters of the will (man being the captain of his own fate, so to speak) then I don't see the purpose of this thread. Paganism is replete with unbelievers who would be both Calvinists and Pelagains, save for the gospel of Christ.

    If you doubt me, just ask Oedipus. :)
     
    #6 JonC, Dec 26, 2017
  7. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Think the point of the OP is that natural sinners would not think up a salvation system that gives God all the glory, as they would want to make sure we saved ourselves!
     
    #7 Yeshua1, Dec 27, 2017
    • Like Like x 1
  8. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2016
    Messages:
    5,149
    Likes Received:
    293
    The pharisees believed themselves God chosen and give all credit to God.

    11“The Pharisee stood and was praying this to himself: ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other people: swindlers, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector.


    I love how Calvinist just brag about how they are just so much more humble then everyone else.
     
    #8 utilyan, Dec 29, 2017
  9. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    Messages:
    52,030
    Likes Received:
    3,657
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I want to congratulate you on moving the point of the op from its original juvenile place to this reasonable explanation. The truth is man will always work to save himself on his own terms. Neither Calvinism nor any other understanding of soteriology tries to do that.
     
    #9 Revmitchell, Dec 29, 2017
  10. Jordan Kurecki

    Jordan Kurecki Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2013
    Messages:
    1,925
    Likes Received:
    130
    Faith:
    Baptist
    #10 Jordan Kurecki, Dec 29, 2017
  11. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2010
    Messages:
    33,921
    Likes Received:
    1,663
    Faith:
    Baptist
    That’s called Lordship Salvation.
     
    #11 Earth Wind and Fire, Dec 30, 2017
  12. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2010
    Messages:
    24,988
    Likes Received:
    2,268
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Another fallacy. If you think you will be able to post that non-Calvinists don't give all glory to God then your days are numbered here on BB.

    Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk
     
    #12 InTheLight, Dec 30, 2017
(You must log in or sign up to post here.)
Loading...