Seventh-day Adventists

I am trying to see if we do actually differ on the point of "non essential for salvation". You keep letting off the "for salvation" part. Are you doing this for some deceptive purpose?

It is a simple yes or no question. Is observing the Sabbath as SDA sees this or abstaining from certain meats as SDA sees this essential FOR ONE'S SALVATION?

 

Rebellion against God is not 'for salvation" as we probably both know.

For example - I do not believe that Catholics are all lost because they all bow down before images and promise to serve those they represent even though this clearly violates the Commandments of God. (As I have said in the past) -- "to him that knows to do right and does it not - to him it is sin". James 4:17

so then your "non essential for salvation" could be worked into a lot of scenarios trying to get all of scripture to be "non essential".

I also believe that Romans 2:13-16 - says that gentiles with no access to scripture at all - are in some cases saved because they experience the New Birth - via the Holy Spirit.

This does not mean that as Christians we should ignore the Bible or should bow down before images or should not know who Christ is... Or should view all of that as "not important" for Christians.

all of your games aside "the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12.

the text remains true no matter how many "yes no" games you would like to engage in as we probably both agree.

 

Although you avoid answering a simple yes or no, your answer is nevertheless very telling.
I see you fear that not following the SDA doctrines is viewed by God as rebellion and thus as you say "not for salvation". This is what I thought was going on with the SDA culture.

Now you show confusion in your own thought process. First you said "Rebellion is not for salvation". Then you say the Catholics can be in rebellion and yet not be lost. You need to take one position or the other.

I believe you have shown how it is the SDA which creates scenarios in which rebels (Catholics) against the commandments of God are still saved. So which way do you believe Bob? Are rebels against the commandments of God saved or are they lost?

The question is, does it remain true for you? You have said the Catholic which rebels against the commandments of God can still be "saints" (saved). It seems you have no foundational stand. Either obeying the commandments of God are essential for salvation or they are not? Which way is it for the SDA?

 

That verse is speaking of the future. Read the whole chapter.

And THAT mankind was Israel.

Again, Isaiah was writing of the future, which is STILL future. Again, Read the whole chapter.

And Paul & most of those to whom he was preaching were Jews. paul also wrote,
"""Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day"""(Colossians 2:16)

Jesus said He was sent to the "lost sheep of the House of IsraelL. But He also saved several gentiles during His ministry, such as the Roman centurion whose servant was ill, & the Canaanite woman who touched the hem of His robe.

Sure, anyone who's heard of the Seven-Day-Adlibbers has heard of EGW, so it's only natural the SDAs mention her in their beliefs, but they don't really introduce new "converts" into the meat of her writings til these folx have been SDAers for awhile.

"IT'S ONLY MAKE BELIEVE"
-Conway Twitty

 

Then I suggest you actually READ the Bible - ALL of it, not just the verses you like!

YOUR stuff is what's totally false-and here's why!

Rev. 19:

 

Isaiah 66:23 says sabbath is for "ALL MANKIND"
Mark 2:27 Christ said the Sabbath "was MADE for MANKIND"
Isaiah 56:5-8 singles out gentiles SPECIFICALLY - for Sabbath Keeping
Acts 18:4 "EVERY Sabbath" BOTH Jews AND Gentiles gather for Gospel preaching even after accepting Paul's teaching.
Jeremiah 31:31-33 says the NEW COVENANT is for "The house of ISRAEL" - are you also rejecting the NEW Covenant???
Exodus 20:1-2 says the TEN Commandments are for Israel -- that includes "Do not take God's name in vain" are you also rejecting the Commandments of God.

D.L. Moody, R.C. Sproul, Andy Stanley, EVEN the Baptist Confession of Faith , admit that the TEN Commandments are included in the moral law of God given to mankind - written on the heart - under the NEW Covenant.

I find your logic "illusive" at that point.

 

Yep - that's how He wipes out all the wicked.



If you read ALL of Rev. 19-20 you'll see Jesus will COME TO EARTH with His saints to RULE THE EARTH.
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If that were true you would have quoted Rev 19 or 20 instead of yourself again.

Rev 19
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war. 12 His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself. 13 He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses. 15 From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty. 16 And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, “KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”
17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice, saying to all the birds which fly in midheaven, “Come, assemble for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of commanders and the flesh of mighty men and the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them and the flesh of all men, both free men and slaves, and small and great.”
... 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which came from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh.

All the wicked on planet earth wiped out.

And the saints raptured to heaven at the 2nd coming - when "the dead in Christ rise FIRST" 1 Thess 4 - at the "FIRST resurrection" Rev 20:4-5

The result is "desolate Earth" during the 1000 years.

While Christ and all the saints are in heaven during that time.

"ruling with a rod of iron" is a no-mercy all-wrath scenario where the wicked are being punished - exterminated. "the wages of sin is death" Rom 6:23 -- the "rod of iron"

Your references to what you call "garbage" and "cult" and a 100 other invectives that fill your posts is an appeal to "emotionalism" but little else by way of actual facts. Those false accusations are a dime-a-dozen and the accuser of the brethren resorted to that method all day long with the early Christian church. You can do better.

Stick with the Bible -- instead.

 

DESOLATE Earth


Rev 20:4-5 shows the ”First Resurrection” Which is the resurrection of the saints the “dead in Christ” as Paul says in 1Thess 4 at our “Gathering together to Him” 2Thess 2:1-4 a the “Coming of the Lord” (Both 2Thess 2 and 1Thess 4 point that out).


Rev 19 says that the living wicked are destroyed by fire and by the sword that comes from Christ “at the coming of the Lord” – it says “The rest were killed by the sword” that comes from Christ. Vs 21


At that time Christ raptures the church (in the singular event He promised in John 14) and we are taken to heaven both the living AND the dead (raised at the First Resurrection).


So what about the earth? That leaves “no one” here – so does the Bible describe earth as left without humans, dead corpses from one end of earth to another? No one left to bury the dead? Cities all destroyed? Really?


Millennium – a time without a single human remaining alive. Not a glorious place to live - but a
place where birds feeding on rotting corpses of mankind. And yet it is temporary – only lasting for 1000 years.


This feast of the birds we see described again in Rev 19 where the lamb destroys certain of mankind


Ez 32:4-8
4 ""I will leave you on the land; I will cast you on the open field. And I will cause all the birds of the heavens to dwell on you, And I will satisfy the beasts of the whole earth with you.
5 ""I will lay your flesh on the mountains And fill the valleys with your refuse.
6 ""I will also make the land drink the discharge of your blood As far as the mountains, And the ravines will be full of you.
7 ""And when I extinguish you, I will cover the heavens and darken their stars; I will cover the sun with a cloud And the moon will not give its light.
8 ""All the shining lights in the heavens I will darken over you And will set darkness on your land,'' Declares the Lord GOD.



Jer 4:23
I looked on the earth, and behold, it was formless and void; And to the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I looked on the mountains, and behold, they were quaking, And all the hills moved to and fro.
25 I looked, and behold, there was no man, And all the birds of the heavens had fled.

26 I looked, and behold, the fruitful land was a wilderness, And all its cities were pulled down Before the LORD, before His fierce anger.



Jer 25:33

""Those slain by the LORD on that day will be from one end of the earth to the other. They will not be lamented, gathered or buried; they will be like dung on the face of the ground.


] Zeph 1:18

Neither their silver nor their gold Will be able to deliver them On the day of the LORD'S wrath; And all the earth will be devoured In the fire of His jealousy, For He will make a complete end, Indeed a terrifying one, Of all the inhabitants of the earth.

Isaiah 24
1 Behold, the LORD lays the earth waste, devastates it, distorts its surface and scatters its inhabitants.
2 And the people will be like the priest, the servant like his master, the maid like her mistress, the buyer like the seller, the lender like the borrower, the creditor like the debtor.
3 The earth will be completely laid waste and completely despoiled,


It is obviously a World Wide Calamity – World Wide catastrophe


Isaiah 24

17 Terror and pit and snare Confront you, O inhabitant of the earth.
18 Then it will be that he who flees the report of disaster will fall into the pit, And he who climbs out of the pit will be caught in the snare; For the windows above are opened, and the foundations of the earth shake.
19 The earth is broken asunder, The earth is split through, The earth is shaken violently.
20 The earth reels to and fro like a drunkard And it totters like a shack, For its transgression is heavy upon it, And it will fall, never to rise again.

 

Rebellion against God is not 'for salvation" as we probably both know.

For example - I do not believe that Catholics are all lost because they all bow down before images and promise to serve those they represent even though this clearly violates the Commandments of God. (As I have said in the past) -- "to him that knows to do right and does it not - to him it is sin". James 4:17

so then your "non essential for salvation" could be worked into a lot of scenarios trying to get all of scripture to be "non essential".

I also believe that Romans 2:13-16 - says that gentiles with no access to scripture at all - are in some cases saved because they experience the New Birth - via the Holy Spirit.

This does not mean that as Christians we should ignore the Bible or should bow down before images or should not know who Christ is... Or should view all of that as "not important" for Christians.

all of your games aside "the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12.

the text remains true no matter how many "yes no" games you would like to engage in as we probably both agree.

True - my answer is incredibly obvious - all the "yes/no" games you suggest - aside.

 

1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is keeping the Commandments of God"
1 John 5:2-3 "This IS the LOVE of God that we KEEP His commandments"
Rev 14:12 "the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus"

James 4:17 "to him that knows to do right and does it not - to him it is sin"

 

Isaiah 66:23 says sabbath is for "ALL MANKIND"
Mark 2:27 Christ said the Sabbath "was MADE for MANKIND"
Isaiah 56:5-8 singles out gentiles SPECIFICALLY - for Sabbath Keeping
Acts 18:4 "EVERY Sabbath" BOTH Jews AND Gentiles gather for Gospel preaching even after accepting Paul's teaching.
Jeremiah 31:31-33 says the NEW COVENANT is for "The house of ISRAEL" - are you also rejecting the NEW Covenant???
Exodus 20:1-2 says the TEN Commandments are for Israel -- that includes "Do not take God's name in vain" are you also rejecting the Commandments of God.

D.L. Moody, R.C. Sproul, Andy Stanley, EVEN the Baptist Confession of Faith , admit that the TEN Commandments are included in the moral law of God given to mankind - written on the heart - under the NEW Covenant.

Isaiah 66:23 Sabbath for "ALL MANKIND"

you said "Again, Isaiah was writing of the future, which is STILL future. Again, Read the whole chapter" -- so then you also think the Sabbath will be for you as well in the New Earth??

You did not address this...

Mark 2:27 Christ said the Sabbath "was MADE for MANKIND"
Isaiah 56:5-8 singles out gentiles SPECIFICALLY - for Sabbath Keeping
Acts 18:4 "EVERY Sabbath" BOTH Jews AND Gentiles gather for Gospel preaching even after accepting Paul's teaching.
Jeremiah 31:31-33 says the NEW COVENANT is for "The house of ISRAEL" - are you also rejecting the NEW Covenant???
Exodus 20:1-2 says the TEN Commandments are for Israel -- that includes "Do not take God's name in vain" are you also rejecting the Commandments of God.

 

Since you are unable to post on that topic without childish invectives and insults - and since you just contradicted your earlier false accusation... I assume it is a topic not worth discussing with you , I am fine with that.

 

YES! It is. You can't trust in Christ + something else and be within the realm of Christianity. You have practiced some other religion, but not Christianity. Looking to rules and regulations for your righteousness, or, right-ness, before God disqualifies you from salvation in Christ.

 

Are you saying this is what you believe or what SDAs believe?

 

And you replied....

Ok, it is sin. Now back to the topic....You said the Catholic which rebels against the commandments of God is not lost. Then you quote scripture which says the saints keep the commandments of God when I asked about salvation. Either you are confused or misspoke. Which way is it according to you and SDA doctrine?

 

I'm saying that SDA practices demonstrate SDA beliefs, which are not Christian beliefs.

You can't trust in Christ + something else and be within the realm of Christianity. You have practiced some other religion, but not Christianity. Looking to rules and regulations for your righteousness, or, right-ness, before God disqualifies you from salvation in Christ.

 

========================================== then inexplicably

================== I could always post this - again.

Rebellion against God is not 'for salvation" as we probably both know.

For example - I do not believe that Catholics are all lost because they all bow down before images and promise to serve those they represent even though this clearly violates the Commandments of God. (As I have said in the past) -- "to him that knows to do right and does it not - to him it is sin". James 4:17

so then your "non essential for salvation" could be worked into a lot of scenarios trying to get all of scripture to be "non essential".

I also believe that Romans 2:13-16 - says that gentiles with no access to scripture at all - are in some cases saved because they experience the New Birth - via the Holy Spirit.

This does not mean that as Christians we should ignore the Bible or should bow down before images or should not know who Christ is... Or should view all of that as "not important" for Christians.

all of your games aside "the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12.

the text remains true no matter how many "yes no" games you would like to engage in as we probably both agree.

Will this be the part where instead of just "quoting you" in your false accusation of others -- you quote the SDA 28 Fundamental Beliefs -- or "me"??

 

No I didn't -- that is "you" quoting "you".

Rev 14:12 is neither confused or misspoken -- and we both know it.

"The saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12
Neither is my quote of James 4:17 "the one who knows to do right and does it not - to him it is sin"

The point remains

 

Are we saved by faith and keeping the Sabbath then?