The Rod of Iron Rule....when is it? How does it work?

[agedman]

Agedman -
may I suggest you read, reread, my posts before a further reply, & quote what you are specifically refuting.

How am I supposed to refute what is put forth when it is not at least taking the statements of Zachariah as physically factual?

I am supposed to attend to some "spiritualizing" rather than attending to the actual rendering of the words?

Where you see some "new Jerusalem" which is actually that which Christ is preparing as He stated, you attempt to pull it from the proper place it is revealed after the final judgment into a place were the current exists.

That just is so far removed from the presentation of Zachariah that it has nothing of which is defensibly foundational in which to substantially refute.

So, I attempted to show how you actually do what you accuse the author of the article of doing.

Will the nations plunder Jerusalem and squabble with each other over control and Christ return as King of Kings and fill the valleys with their dead carcasses as Zachariah 14 opening verses state? You don't think so, I do.

Will the Mountain be split in two and a great river flow from Jerusalem in two directions? What river of the world has ever done such? You don't think so, I do.

Will the great earthquake flatten all the land except that of the city so that it sets highly exalted above all? You don't think so, I do.

Will the current physical Jerusalem be the place Christ will sit as He conforms the world to His will? You don't think so, I do.

See, if you hold to spiritualizing, and I hold to reality, you and I have little in common of substance in which we can discuss.

This is why you consider the article presenting a biased view of events and I do not.

This is why you cannot accept that the prophetic statements including size and design of that great temple. You cannot see that Zachariah's statements of the nations (those that are left of the people of the earth) will be compelled to come and worship the King of Kings. It just doesn't fit your scheme.

Yet, just as the statements of the first advent did not fit the scheme of the Scribes and Pharisees, they were never the less accurate and physically true.

So to will be the prophecy concerning the second advent. Physically true.

 

[agedman]

Earlier in the thread, the question was ask about temptation and sin during the millennium, and the need for the "rod of iron" rule.

With the exception of the very last season of the millennium, the tempter (taken as all Satanic influence) is removed (chained) from the world.

If the tempter is not available to be active, what "temptation" does a person face in the millennium?

Because the "self will" of a heart that is bent to evil and still occupies all humanity, and though the conditions of the whole earth is environmentally like that of Eden, the human condition is still fallen.

Even without the tempter, there is rebellion and defiance.

Hence the "rod of iron" rule. The prophet(s) discribe the situation of a person who does not come to worship (that rebellious hearted) and the retribution that is given as a result.

This is a time of immediate consequences for behaviors. An example is that found when the Israeli camp would sin during their journey from Exodus to the promised land. Immediately the "rod of correction" brought certain results.

And, why after nearly a 1000 years, when the tempter is released it takes but a season for a massive rebellion to break out and "surround the camp of the saints" and time stops. The human heart is twisted from birth and will rebel even in the most perfect conditions.

The end comes. There is no war, not even a skirmish. Immediately, the final "great white throne" judgment.

There is a picture of both the Father and the Son during this time. It is given in Psalm 2 where the Father laughs at the "kings" of the world, and how He has given authority to the Son who He has instilled upon the throne in Zion and identifies that place as "My Holy Mountain." That indicates the Zion is that exalted Jerusalem in which the water flows from in two different directions at the same time for the healing of the nations.

This Psalm cannot fit in any other time or future event other then the millennium.

 

[Aaron]

Later JOJ offered this;

The purpose of the Millennial reign of Christ is not to convince Mankind of anything. What Christ will prove is that Mankind is still rebellious and depraved, even after 1000 years of perfect rule.

Lol. That was proven in the Garden, and on Sinai, and is proven everyday Anno Domini.

Besides, the oft-stated purpose is to fulfill a supposed hitherto yet unfulfilled promise to Abraham, which makes more sense, but I'm amazed at the way they just make stuff up postulate their notions as revelation itself.

 

[agedman]

Lol. That was proven in the Garden, and on Sinai, and is proven everyday Anno Domini.

Besides, the oft-stated purpose is to fulfill a supposed hitherto yet unfulfilled promise to Abraham, which makes more sense, but I'm amazed at the way they just make stuff up postulate their notions as revelation itself.

The “tempter” was the catalyst from the Eden to the millennium.

However, in the millennium there is NO such influence, yet there is still the need for the “rod.”

It is because in the natural state, humankind continue to turn from the light, are born depraved, have no heart of righteousness.

That is the underlying premise that JofJ was stating.

Humankind left on their own fail, even during the most perfect age, the most utopian of all environment, the most sublime presence of the Christ.

 

[Aaron]

The “tempter” was the catalyst from the Eden to the millennium.

However, in the millennium there is NO such influence, yet there is still the need for the “rod.”

It is because in the natural state, humankind continue to turn from the light, are born depraved, have no heart of righteousness.

That is the underlying premise that JofJ was stating.

Humankind left on their own fail, even during the most perfect age, the most utopian of all environment, the most sublime presence of the Christ.

We have Christ's presence in us, and you say a localized presence one can plot on a map is the "most sublime?"

I get what he was saying, but there is no need for a Millennium as you imagine it to prove man's total depravity. It's proven already. Besides, that is not the point of the Millennium according to the most lauded premillennial preachers.

The viability of premillennial doctrine hangs on the idea that the tabernacle, priesthood and offerings need to be reinstated, and the supremacy of the Jews needs to be established in order to fulfill certain promises imagined yet to be unfulfilled because of free will.

 

[kyredneck]

We have Christ's presence in us, and you say a localized presence one can plot on a map is the "most sublime?"

Amen Aaron.

Lo, there! Lo, here! - NOT!

23 And they shall say to you, Lo, there! Lo, here! go not away, nor follow after them:
24 for as the lightning, when it lighteneth out of the one part under the heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall the Son of man be in his day. Lu 17

14 But thanks be unto God, who always leadeth us in triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest through us the savor of his knowledge in every place. 2 Cor 2

The Meaning of "parousia" in Greek - scroll

 

[agedman]

We have Christ's presence in us, and you say a localized presence one can plot on a map is the "most sublime?"

I get what he was saying, but there is no need for a Millennium as you imagine it to prove man's total depravity. It's proven already. Besides, that is not the point of the Millennium according to the most lauded premillennial preachers.

The viability of premillennial doctrine hangs on the idea that the tabernacle, priesthood and offerings need to be reinstated, and the supremacy of the Jews needs to be established in order to fulfill certain promises imagined yet to be unfulfilled because of free will.

It isn’t a matter of “no need for a millennium” to prove anything. God does not need to prove, but does anyway.

The millennium is that which God promised, given to the prophets to record, and such statements concerning that time are as faithful and will be as physically real as the first advent and those statements concerning that time.

The believers do not “rule” (as promised and described in the letters) and have never ruled this physical earth, but that promise is certain and sure.

Should one promise of God fail just because it may not seem necessary from a human perspective?

 

[agedman]

Amen Aaron.

Lo, there! Lo, here! - NOT!

23 And they shall say to you, Lo, there! Lo, here! go not away, nor follow after them:
24 for as the lightning, when it lighteneth out of the one part under the heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall the Son of man be in his day. Lu 17

14 But thanks be unto God, who always leadeth us in triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest through us the savor of his knowledge in every place. 2 Cor 2

The Meaning of "parousia" in Greek - scroll

Did you not read JofJ rebuttal of your “parousia” in the post following yours in the link you posted?

It isn’t like JofJ is ignorant of this subject, and ignoring the teaching he offers or at least not acknowledging the teaching as sound in comparison to where you are gathering information is a display of retaining a view based on bias rather then facts.

Did not, in his post, point specifically the error of that author?

 

[kyredneck]

Did you not read JofJ rebuttal of your “parousia” in the post following yours in the link you posted?

Yes. I disagree with him.

It isn’t like JofJ is ignorant of this subject, and ignoring the teaching he offers or at least not acknowledging the teaching as sound in comparison to where you are gathering information is a display of retaining a view based on bias rather then facts.

...and JoJ's bias is Dispensationalism. I disagree with him.

Did not, in his post, point specifically the error of that author?

That's 'in his opinion' error. I disagree with him.

 

[Iconoclast]

Remarkably, this securing of “the nations” is the very task the Messiah assigns to his followers in the Great Commission: “Go and make disciples of all nations” (Mt 28:19a; see discussion below). He will rule over them with his rod and dash in pieces those who refuse to submit (Ps 2:9). This he does through his mighty word and under his controlling providence (Heb 1:3, 8–13; e.g., Mt 21:43–44). Because of this ultimate hope, the raging nations receive warning: “Therefore, you kings, be wise; / be warned, you rulers of the earth. / Serve the LORD with fear / and rejoice with trembling. / Kiss the Son, lest he be angry and you be destroyed in your way, / for his wrath can flare up in a moment. / Blessed are all who take refuge in him” (Ps 2:10–12). This psalm gloriously develops the redemptive-historical theme of struggle and victory which begins with the protoevangelium. It throbs with historical optimism and serves virtually as a postmillennial tract urging confidence in God’s people.
Psalm 22 Psalm 22 prophesies that “all the ends of the earth will remember32 and turn to the Lord, and all the families of the nations will worship before Thee” (v 27). Interestingly, like Psalm 2 this psalm refers to 33 Christ’s suffering. In fact, evangelicals universally recognize Psalm 22:1–21 is prophesying the crucifixion. Verse 1 is uttered by Christ in his agony on the cross (Mt 27:46); verse 18 is also fulfilled at the cross (Jn 19:2). Yet his suffering quickly gives way to his glorious dominion (vv 22–31), as per the pattern of the New Testament: suffering then glory (Lk 24:26; Php 2:6–11; 1Pe 1:11). After his suffering men will declare his praise in the church (Ps 22:22; Heb 2:12). That praise includes the church (“great assembly,” Heb 12:23) proclaiming his victory (Ps 22:27ff). The reason he will save the earth is that the earth is his by right (Ps 22:28); he creates the material earth for his glory. And he displays his glory through worldwide redemption.
Ken Gentry...He Shall Have Dominion pg241

pg242;
The prophets greatly expand the Messianic victory theme. I will highlight several prophetic pronouncements regarding his victory.41
Isaiah 2:1–4 In Isaiah 2 we learn that the “last days” will experience a universal attractive influence to divine worship and an international dispersion and influence of Christianity. This will result in righteous living on the personal level and social peace on the international level: He shall judge between the nations, / And shall rebuke many people; / They shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks. (Isa 2:4a) Isaiah indicates the “last days” will be the era that witnesses these things — not some era after these last days. The “last days” begin with the 42 coming of Christ. Isaiah’s younger contemporary, Micah, repeats this 43 prophecy almost verbatim (Mic 4:1–3). Here “Judah and Jerusalem” stand for God’s people, as “Israel and Judah” do in Jeremiah 31:31, which the New Testament specifically
41. For fuller helpful exposition see: Hengstenberg, Christology of the Old Testament; Alexander, Isaiah. 42. Kim Riddlebarger stumbles when he complains against postmillennialists regarding Isa 2:2–4: “This leaves open the possibility of interpreting those passages which speak of a new heaven and earth as applying to the present age (i.e., Isa. 2:2–4).” Riddlebarger, A Case for Amillennialism, 240. We apply this passage to “the present age” because Isaiah states that it will be “in the last days,” i.e., during the last days. 43. That is, in the times initiated by Christ at his First Advent, Ac 2:16, 17, 24; 1Co 10:11; Gal 4:4; Heb 1:1, 2; 9:26; Jas 5:3; 1Pe 1:20; 1Jn 2:18; Jude 18. For a discussion of “the last days,” see ch. 13 “Eschatological Time-Frames” below.

 

[Iconoclast]

ibid;
Christ’s reign over his kingdom begins at his first coming and will 59 be “progressive and perpetual.” In prophecy Christ appears as the son 60 or branch of David (Jer 23:5; 33:13), or as David himself (Jer 30:9; Eze 34:23, 23; 37:24; Hos 3:5). After his resurrection he ascends to David’s throne (Ac 2:30–31), which represents God’s throne (1Ch 28:5; 29:23). His reign brings peace, for he is the “Prince of Peace” (Isa 9:6). This peace grows incrementally through history: Christ “extends its boundaries far
and wide, and then preserves and carries it forward in uninterrupted progression to eternity.” 61
Isaiah 11:9 Isaiah 11:1–10 speaks gloriously of the eschatological hope beginning with Adam, flowing through Noah, and expanding with Abraham. The preceding context contrasts with the collapse of David’s house and of the Jewish government to Assyria (Isa 10). Though the nearly extinct house of David is but a stump, it still has life and will bud with a branch. That branch is Christ: he restores David’s house in the New Testament, hence 62 the emphasis in the New Testament on his genealogy from David (Mt 1:1–17; Lk 3:23–38 ). 63 Christ comes in the first century as a stem or branch (Isa 11:1). The Holy Spirit richly indwells him (11:2) ; he will judge his adversaries (v 4, 64 particularly first-century Israel, Mt 3:1–12; 21:43–45; 23:33–38; 24:2–34). And once again, righteousness and peace flow in his wake. Isaiah describes the peace between men as a removal of the enmity between wolf and lamb, bear and cow, lion and calf, leopard and kid, serpent and child (vv 6–8). God’s grace will transform their warring nature (cf. Eph 65 2:1–4). Because of his coming, earth’s future is glorious: “They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain, for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD as the waters cover the sea” (Isa 11:9). This unfolds gradually, beginning “in that day” when the “root of Jesse” shall stand as a banner (signal, place of rendezvous ) to the Gentiles (v 10) 67 followed by the conversion of the Jews (v 11). The first century calling of the Gentiles certainly shows the fulfillment of verse 10 is underway; that calling continues even to this very day (Ro 15:4–12, see especially v 12). The future conversion of the Jews will conclude the fulfillment (Ro 11:12–25). 68 We learn later in Isaiah that God will heal even his arch-enemies Egypt and Assyria and will place them on an equal footing worship with Israel: And the Lord will strike Egypt, striking but healing; so they will return to the Lord, and He will respond to them and will heal them. In that day there will be a highway from Egypt to Assyria, and the Assyrians will come into Egypt and the Egyptians into Assyria, and the Egyptians will worship with the Assyrians. In that day Israel will be the third party with Egypt and Assyria, a blessing in the midst of the earth. (Isa 19:22–24) The God of the Bible is the Healer of the nations.

62. Mt 1:17,18; Mk 11:10; Ac 2:34–36; 13:34; 15:16. 63. See also: Lk 1:27, 32, 69; 2:4; 9:27; 12:23; 15:22; 20:30–31; 21:9, 15; Ro 1:3; Rev 3:7; 5:5; 22:16. 64. Mt 3:16–4:1; 12:17–21; Lk 4:14–21; Jn 3:34; Ac 10:38. 65. Several of these dangerous creatures are compared to Satan and sinners elsewhere: wolves (Eze 22:27; Zep 3:3; Mt 7:15; 10:16), bears (Pr 28:15; Lam 3:10; Da 7:5; Rev 13:2), serpents (Ps 140:3; 2Co 11:3; Rev 12:9ff), leopards (Jer 13:23; Da 7:6; Rev 13:2), and lions (Jer 12:8; Eze 22:25; Da 7:4; 1Pe 5:8; Rev 13:2). Three of them converge in the Dal 7 and Rev 13 image of wicked rulers, perhaps suggesting that Isaiah speaks of the pacification of rulers through conversion. 66. The future tense in the first clause (“they shall not hurt or destroy”) and a preterit in the second clause (“the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord” suggests that peace will follow the initial spread of righteousness through faith.
249C

 

[Iconoclast]

Messiah’s ascension and session will guarantee world dominion: “I was watching in the night visions, and behold, One like the Son of Man, coming with the clouds of heaven! He came to the Ancient of Days, and they brought him near before Him. Then to him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom the one which shall not be destroyed” (Da 7:13–14). We must note that Daniel 7:13–14 speaks of Christ’s ascension to the Ancient of Days, not his return to the earth at the second advent. After his ascension to God’s right hand he will gain universal dominion, which will eventually result in days of prosperity, peace, and righteousness. Particularly in Isaiah and Ezekiel

71. Ps 22:27; 46:8–10; 47:3; 66:4; 67:4; 86:9; 67:2; 72:11, 17; 82:8; 86:9; 102:15; Isa 2:2–3; 25:6–7; 40:5; 49:6, 22–23; 52:15; 55:5; 60:1–7, 10–14; 61:11; 66:19–20; Jer 3:17; 4:2; Da 7:14; Am 9:11–15; Mic 4:1–3; 5:2–4, 16–17; 7:16–17; Hab 2:14–20; Hag 2:7ff; Zep 3:10; Zec 2:11; 8:22–23; 9:9–10; 14:16; Mal 1:11; 3:1–12.

 

[agedman]

To much, Icon!

I will remark as to your opening statement sentence.

The commission is not to “secure the nations” nor to make disciples of the nations, but to go INTO all nations.

Making disciples from individuals of those ungodly nations.

Not until that millennial rule will whole nations be compelled to worship.

He will be king over all kings, not the king over the disciples, and He is certainly not the king over all people and lands, but will be, and will rule with iron just as His great prayer (one that the Jews repeat in part) “Thy Kingdom Come, Your will done on earth as it is in Heaven.”

“Glorified and sanctified be God’s great name throughout the world
which He has created according to His will.

May He establish His kingdom in your lifetime and during your days,
and within the life of the entire House of Israel, speedily and soon;
and say, Amen.”​

 

[Aaron]

The commission is not to “secure the nations” nor to make disciples of the nations, but to go INTO all nations.

No, He said, Go ye therefore teaching all nations. . . baptizing THEM . . . and teaching THEM to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you.

 

[Iconoclast]

It isn’t a matter of “no need for a millennium” to prove anything. God does not need to prove, but does anyway.

The millennium is that which God promised, given to the prophets to record, and such statements concerning that time are as faithful and will be as physically real as the first advent and those statements concerning that time.

The believers do not “rule” (as promised and described in the letters) and have never ruled this physical earth, but that promise is certain and sure.

Should one promise of God fail just because it may not seem necessary from a human perspective?

Hello AG.

In the ot.....was a millennium promised,
Or was it a promised Kingdom?
Only in Rev.20 is the term 1000yrs mentioned.
The difference being the promise of a coming Kingdom was announced and initiated in the gospels.

 

[Iconoclast]

To much, Icon!

I will remark as to your opening statement sentence.

The commission is not to “secure the nations” nor to make disciples of the nations, but to go INTO all nations.

Making disciples from individuals of those ungodly nations.

Not until that millennial rule will whole nations be compelled to worship.

He will be king over all kings, not the king over the disciples, and He is certainly not the king over all people and lands, but will be, and will rule with iron just as His great prayer (one that the Jews repeat in part) “Thy Kingdom Come, Your will done on earth as it is in Heaven.”

“Glorified and sanctified be God’s great name throughout the world
which He has created according to His will.

May He establish His kingdom in your lifetime and during your days,
and within the life of the entire House of Israel, speedily and soon;
and say, Amen.”​

AG.....In post 52 there is a solid list of verses that speak of the kingdom spreading worldwide. ...list all the things they speak of and observe they seem to speak of it happening in the midst of oposition.... but turning gradually to submit to the King of Kings.

 

[agedman]

No, He said, Go ye therefore teaching all nations. . . baptizing THEM . . . and teaching THEM to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you.

No Aaron,

The commission was to make disciples of all nations.

Never will all political nations by their own nature seek God, except one.

The nation of Israel will because God will change the hearts and open the eyes.

Other then believers, those nations shall be ruled with iron.

 

[agedman]

AG.....In post 52 there is a solid list of verses that speak of the kingdom spreading worldwide. ...list all the things they speak of and observe they seem to speak of it happening in the midst of oposition.... but turning gradually to submit to the King of Kings.

I will tend to these another time, but have encountered such thinking, many times before.

The darkness will never gradually turn to the dawning or slowly turn to noon day bright, and when Christ’s great kingdom shall come to earth, it will be putting down world wide rebellion.

Until then, nation shall rise against nation, believer against believer, the dominion of darkness will continue to shun, mock, and attempt to overcome light. The children of this world remain wiser, more cunningly deceitful then the children of light.

Do you really consider that the natural man’s heart is basically good? Is there ever a time when the world embraced the right, and light was unhindered? Even in the millennial reign such does not happen, but the natural heart is set on rebellion.

Icon, another world war is coming, the bowls of wrath will be poured out, the believers will be slaughtered, and even now as I write the image of what will take place is evidenced in ungodliness toward believers. Look here at the moral decadence of the US, that had a church in every community.

If ever there was light it was at the turn of the 20th century, but then the war to end all wars came because man’s heart was wicked. So another world war, and was human hearts changed? Have not wars (Clinton rumor of war to distract) been the standard meal served to the world even to this new century?

Yet, your view is things are going to get better? Folks will turn to the light?

 

[Iconoclast]

agedman

Do you really consider that the natural man’s heart is basically good?

Where did i say anything to give you that impression.?..men are totally depraved.

Is there ever a time when the world embraced the right, and light was unhindered?

Not since gen 1:31

Even in the millennial reign such does not happen, but the natural heart is set on rebellion.

Yes...and the question remains ...what if we are indeed in the Kingdom now?

Icon, another world war is coming,

I see those judgments as descriptive of what came upon covenant breaking Israel.

I understand you think these judgments are yet future, but let me ask you AG...when do you think the cursing of Deut. comes upon national Israel?

the bowls of wrath will be poured out, the believers will be slaughtered, and even now as I write the image of what will take place is evidenced in ungodliness toward believers. Look here at the moral decadence of the US, that had a church in every community.

I can see what you mean if I read the newspapers...but the bible indicates a kingdom spreading;
72 Give the king thy judgments, O God, and thy righteousness unto the king's son.

2 He shall judge thy people with righteousness, and thy poor with judgment.

3 The mountains shall bring peace to the people, and the little hills, by righteousness.

4 He shall judge the poor of the people, he shall save the children of the needy, and shall break in pieces the oppressor.

5 They shall fear thee as long as the sun and moon endure, throughout all generations.

6 He shall come down like rain upon the mown grass: as showers that water the earth.

7 In his days shall the righteous flourish; and abundance of peace so long as the moon endureth.

8 He shall have dominion also from sea to sea, and from the river unto the ends of the earth.

If ever there was light it was at the turn of the 20th century, but then the war to end all wars came because man’s heart was wicked. So another world war, and was human hearts changed?

Yes...this is true...but God gives sinners a new heart.

Have not wars (Clinton rumor of war to distract) been the standard meal served to the world even to this new century?

yes...because the church does not obey the great Commission as much as it should, it is too busy entertaining itself.

Yet, your view is things are going to get better?

You used to be wicked and corrupt, but not now.God saves one sinner at a time...."Things" are not going to get better, but as the gospel spreads sinners are going to be changed , and this regeneration is what is going to make a difference.

Folks will turn to the light?

As the Spirit converts more and more sinners...it will have an effect on society because there will be majority Christians ,
It is not about getting goats to "act like christians"...or christianize the world....it is about salvation and conversion changing hearts and minds from an internal spring of grace.

 

[Aaron]

No Aaron,

The commission was to make disciples of all nations.

That is what you're reading into it. The wording of the Commission is otherwise. The wording is, "go into the world and preach to every creature" (Mark) and "teach all nations."

Never will all political nations by their own nature seek God, except one.

The nation of Israel will because God will change the hearts and open the eyes.

Other then believers, those nations shall be ruled with iron.

This is merely a postulation of your notions, and not an argument from the Scriptures.