The Rod of Iron Rule....when is it? How does it work?

[Iconoclast]

Why not take the prophecies concerning the birth, death and resurrection of Christ as symbolic?

Because they are past?

Because they have been evidently fulfilled?

If those were true, why not those that are not yet evidenced?

Certainly, one can try to "spiritualize" all manner of things, even try to escape the judgement, or eternal lake of fire, or present sinful living.

However, if one is to accept the truthfulness of statements concerning the first advent, and then try to spiritualize the second, it is most inconsistent.

Reminds me a bit of those sadduccees who spiritualized the resurrection to the point of no longer believing in such an event.

Those Prophecies of Christ's coming were literally fulfilled because he did come literally into the world at the appointed time made under the law made of a woman to redeem them that were under the law .
yes that was all literal but now there's a transition that takes place where he comes into this earthly realm out of heaven.
now the kingdom of God or the kingdom of the heavens is going to invade the Earth. He comes,accomplishes redemption establishing the Kingdon rule, then ascends to the throne in heaven .
He rules and reigns on the earth from the throne in heaven and He uses the church as instruments to present the Great Commission and the rule of the king

 

[agedman]

Now in another thread I believe it was you that said well in the literal one Thousand-Year Millennium Christ will rule with a rod of iron and keep it under control now the question is how exactly does that take place a person is working somewhere and then he's going he's tempted to steal or what do something there's an angel show up and and put cuffs on them or you knows I don't know how we'll just see how this can happen?
I see no indication and scripture of some literal framework where you have unsaved people, angels ,and non glorified people in the same space at the same time with people who are unsaved because they're able to rebel at the end of this thousand year. So you have a good many unsaved people coexisting on Earth how does this happen?

Do you see in Scriptures a virgin birth and is it practical?

Do you see in Scriptures a suffering Messiah and is it practical?

Do you really not see in the Scriptures places were unsaved, saved, angels and ultimate rebellion exampled?

Remember Lot?

What of the blind prophet?

What of Daniel in that den?

What of our Lord in the Garden?

How is it that these are not clear illustrations of what you "cannot see?"

I believe we have that situation on earth now you have Angels who are present but invisible you have Saints or going about being faithful preaching the gospel and you have unsaved people who resist and Rebel and fight against the kingdom of God. Now the rod of iron rule like I said earlier I believe is that God is going to punish all sin even Every Idle word that men speak he keeps account and at the judgement it will all be righteously judged by God

The difference is found in your last sentence.

"Now the rod of iron rule ... is that God is going to punish ..."

See, during the Millennial reign it is Christ ruling, and there is no delayed retribution for refusing obedience.

It will be like the flu. Swift, severe, and without grace.

EVERY king (man of status) on earth will worship, will pay homage, will come to Jerusalem and will be held immediately responsible.

Is that in any manner they way of humankind at this time?

Are all ways straight and plain?

Do we know and see Him face to face and know ourselves and others completely without any mystery or illusions as Paul stated would take place?

If this is the millennium, what happened to the wedding feast in which the Lord states He will enjoy with us?

What rule and authority is even suggested in the New Heaven and Earth as that given in the millennial passages?

Where is the world wide complete peace that has resolved every conflict, with no temptation to evil, no deceitfulness, no prone to wandering by the heathen?

No, this is not and cannot be the millennium.

 

[HankD]

Do you think that would be the work of the church and doing some of that?

This Rod of Iron is more in keeping with the Kingdom Age.
But yes The church is authorized by prayer to deliver some up for the destruction of the flesh.

1 Corinthians 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Admittedly in this the age of grace the destruction of the flesh is symbolic of the Rod of Iron is symbolic which will be used in the kingdom age.

HankD

 

[Iconoclast]

Agedman, thanks for your responses. I intend to offer more in a few hours.
You have some good input that warrants more interaction, but you are raising valid points for consideration.
If you could offer what verses you have in mind speaking of a future millennium.thanks.

 

[agedman]

Those Prophecies of Christ's coming were literally fulfilled because he did come literally into the world at the appointed time made under the law made of a woman to redeem them that were under the law .
yes that was all literal but now there's a transition that takes place where he comes into this earthly realm out of heaven.
now the kingdom of God or the kingdom of the heavens is going to invade the Earth. He comes,accomplishes redemption establishing the Kingdon rule, then ascends to the throne in heaven .
He rules and reigns on the earth from the throne in heaven and He uses the church as instruments to present the Great Commission and the rule of the king

You are mixing times and places.

By shifting from "literally fulfilled" to "now there's a transition" you remove what should be held as factually fulfilled in the future as spiritually fulfilled now.

That is just inconsistent.

Rather, appoint to this age that which is this age and for the grace of this age.

Appoint to that future age that which is for that age and the rule of that age.

Christ does not rule and reign on the earth from the throne of heaven.

God said to Him, "sit here beside be UNTIL I make your enemies your footstool."

The church is to bring the truth of reconciliation (as Paul stated is the mission), but that is not the evidence of the mission of the church in the millennium.

 

[agedman]

Paul so wonderfully compares us to that of Christ.

If He suffered we also suffer. This is a now happening statement

As He will reign we too will reign. This is a future statement.

This is found in instructions given to Timothy

2 Timothy 2:

11It is a trustworthy statement:
For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him;

12If we endure, we will also reign with Him;
If we deny Him, He also will deny us;

13If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.

One reading must not escape that Paul did not currently reign, he would die, he dared not deny, was not faithless. These are all present and past tense statements.

But the "will also" statements are future from the time of Paul.

Not to be taken as at this time but in a future kingdom reign of Christ.

 

[Covenanter]

Psalm 2:9 You shall break them with a rod of iron; You shall dash them to pieces like a potter’s vessel.’”

Revelation 2:27 ‘He shall rule them with a rod of iron; They shall be dashed to pieces like the potter’s vessels’— as I also have received from My Father;

Revelation 12:5 She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne.

Revelation 19:15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.​

What does it mean to rule ?

The KJV translates ποιμαίνω - poimainō Strong's G4165 in the following manner: feed (6x), rule (4x), feed cattle (1x).

Root Word (Etymology) - From ποιμήν - poimēn G4166
The KJV translates Strong's G4166 in the following manner: shepherd (15x), Shepherd (2x), pastor (1x).

And what is a rod?

The KJV translates ῥάβδος - rhábdos - Strong's G4464 in the following manner: rod (6x), staff (4x), sceptre (2x).

 

[Covenanter]

Looking at the KJV texts we get the impression that Christ will be smashing his enemies with his iron rod,
BUT
Looking at the Greek words & the etymology & the way the NIV translates G4464 ("rod") as "sceptre" we get a different impression - he is shepherding the nations as Psalm 23 puts it:

Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death,
I will fear no evil;
For You are with me; Your rod and Your staff, they comfort me.​

Psalm 2 clearly refers to a time of judgment - AD 70, & the last judgment,
BUT
We can see the Lord shepherding his people with his rod & staff, iron signifying his strength, calling sinners of the nations to repentance & his protection, while reserving his rod for judgment of those who reject the Shepherd.

The Gospel age, not a supposed future millennium.

 

[agedman]

Looking at the KJV texts we get the impression that Christ will be smashing his enemies with his iron rod,
BUT
Looking at the Greek words & the etymology & the way the NIV translates G4464 ("rod") as "sceptre" we get a different impression - he is shepherding the nations as Psalm 23 puts it:

Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death,
I will fear no evil;
For You are with me; Your rod and Your staff, they comfort me.​

Psalm 2 clearly refers to a time of judgment - AD 70, & the last judgment,
BUT
We can see the Lord shepherding his people with his rod & staff, iron signifying his strength, calling sinners of the nations to repentance & his protection, while reserving his rod for judgment of those who reject the Shepherd.

The Gospel age, not a supposed future millennium.

That I disagree with that last sentence is a given.

What I want is to present a slightly different picture of the Shepherd.

I suppose it is still consistent with modern shepherds in the Middle East, but back in the day, shepherds carried both a rod and a staff.

The staff is what most are familiar as that typical shepherds crook shaped stick that he would use to guide and grasp the flock as he needed.

The rod was a stout club. It was not used on the sheep but for the enemy of the sheep. For the sheep's protection.

The rule of Christ is with a rod to all who did not know or acknowledge him during the millennium.

Today, the staff is used for the church to guide and rescue.

Why some preterits insist on nonconformity to the Scripture prophecy is truly sad.

It would seem that after multiple threads exposing this lie as formalized and propagated by the papists in opposition to the reformation, that it was originated completely by endorsing extra biblical sources, that not a single shred of historical evidence can be given in support, and the Scriptures give not support, the folks who endorsed this thinking would be embarrassed to continue in that persuasion.

But, that is so very typical of the obstinance and the psychological phenomenon of resisting changes of thinking despite the facts (often overwhelming evidence) that contrary thinking is what is right.

 

[Iconoclast]

agedman,

Now I will offer more in regards to your posting. I believe in literal interpretation despite what some might claim. I qualify that by saying Not a wooden literalism...but rather I notice some of the shadows, types, metaphors, parables,symbols,and whatever other literary devices are employed in scripture.
So in regard to "the rod of Iron rule"I recall this being offered as a catch all phrase that was meant to end all other discussion on the topic....in other words by uttering this scriptural phrase somehow we were all to understand that it would be whatever it would be, so no need to think or speculate any further. the problem is that unbelievers ask more questions...which I have not seen anyone offer on scripturally. I will explore that more, and that is what I would press you on

Do you see in Scriptures a virgin birth and is it practical?

Certainly...in fact it is essential to the true gospel when correctly understood.

Do you see in Scriptures a suffering Messiah and is it practical?

Yes again,,,it is necessary to the biblical narrative,

Do you really not see in the Scriptures places were unsaved, saved, angels and ultimate rebellion exampled?

Remember Lot?

Yes.....but I also "see' in scripture that some of these literal events have another use as shadows give way to "spiritual or heavenly realities"

I do not think this is optional Agedman...but essential;
23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

I base much of my current belief and understanding, and indeed hermenutical principle on these verses and Jesus words to Nicodemus..
12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
I think all believers MUST do this....

Am I suggesting some kind of gnostic secret knowledge...NO.
However I am suggesting comparing scripture with scripture as much as possible.
Is there a potential danger in this? YES.... for sure. Like any truth it can be abused, it can be overdone, error could take hold.

So...I understand and appreciate the caution you and others might offer.
The thing is, when I see some of "the cautions" it seems more of an extreme than what is actually being addressed...I will provide some examples as I work through you responses...

 

[Iconoclast]

pt2 Agedman;

What of the blind prophet?

What of Daniel in that den?

What of our Lord in the Garden?

I believe all as written as straight forward and instructive...applications can be made in sermons or bible lessons, but these are not the more type and shadow sections of scripture that brings the concerns we are discussing are they?

How is it that these are not clear illustrations of what you "cannot see?"

there is a major difference in these sections of scripture and what we are discussing....If my contention and that of others is correct...these teachings showing all the types and shadows from the first Exodus, are designed to be instructive and a template instructing us one who we are In Christ, and why has God called us to His Kingdom.
In fact if these things are not being taught, I believe the teaching is defective to whatever degree these things are neglected.

The difference is found in your last sentence.

"Now the rod of iron rule ... is that God is going to punish ..."

Here I am offering my current understanding of this language
See, during the Millennial reign it is Christ ruling, and there is no delayed retribution for refusing obedience.

It will be like the flu. Swift, severe, and without grace.

It has been awhile since I looked at my premill books on this in particular, so what verses would you use or do the books use that suggest, imply, or directly teach what you say here???

Then I would like an explanation as sinners sin in one way or another everyday...so who is going to last for 1000yrs if it as you suggest. I cannot think of scriptures that teach this, although I have seen this idea in books or heard it in sermons, I am not sure there is enough biblical support for this to get a conviction in a court of law

EVERY king (man of status) on earth will worship, will pay homage, will come to Jerusalem and will be held immediately responsible.

Yes...eventually...

Is that in any manner they way of humankind at this time?

Only as the gospel is victorious in converting persons worldwide will this take place.....are you suggesting a "forced compliance"? again where do you see it...?
Are all ways straight and plain?

Do we know and see Him face to face and know ourselves and others completely without any mystery or illusions as Paul stated would take place?

When that takes place is depicted as future, yet where do you see it explicitly spoken of as in a future1000yr Kingdom on earth....the reign of rev,20 says nothing about those who reign doing so with Jesus on earth...

If this is the millennium, what happened to the wedding feast in which the Lord states He will enjoy with us?

Does this speak of an earthly wedding feast?

What rule and authority is even suggested in the New Heaven and Earth as that given in the millennial passages?

which passages are you thinking of?

Where is the world wide complete peace that has resolved every conflict, with no temptation to evil, no deceitfulness, no prone to wandering by the heathen?

8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

No, this is not and cannot be the millennium.

Many have believed it is indeed...

 

[agedman]

Sorry to be greatly delayed in this discussion.

I am out and about with my wife for the day, and will attend as I can, but until then, I think this may help the readers.

When I lived in the Dallas area, I listened in on this mans teaching, and though in some areas there were disagreement, he was sound in dealing with the topic of the millennium.

It isn’t a long read, but he does address some of the issues concerning the OT prophecies.

Look forward to the reader responses to his thinking.

The Millennium in the Old Testament | Millennium | Lamb and Lion Ministries

 

[Covenanter]

Sorry to be greatly delayed in this discussion.

I am out and about with my wife for the day, and will attend as I can, but until then, I think this may help the readers.

When I lived in the Dallas area, I listened in on this mans teaching, and though in some areas there were disagreement, he was sound in dealing with the topic of the millennium.

It isn’t a long read, but he does address some of the issues concerning the OT prophecies.

Look forward to the reader responses to his thinking.

The Millennium in the Old Testament | Millennium | Lamb and Lion Ministries

My immediate response is that the author "allegorises" OC prophecy to read Israel & Christ's millennium kingdom into prophecy.

Much the same way as we "spiritualise" OC prophecy to read the Church & Christ's present spiritual kingdom into prophecy.

Quoting random & ill-considered amil comments does not advance the premil argument. Nor does the converse apply.

Scriptural discussions between truth seekers, as on this forum, & this thread, are needed.

 

[agedman]

My immediate response is that the author "allegorises" OC prophecy to read Israel & Christ's millennium kingdom into prophecy.

Much the same way as we "spiritualise" OC prophecy to read the Church & Christ's present spiritual kingdom into prophecy.

Quoting random & ill-considered amil comments does not advance the premil argument. Nor does the converse apply.

Scriptural discussions between truth seekers, as on this forum, & this thread, are needed.

Happen to be were I can attend to a short response.

Because we see the events of the first advent from the point of history accomplished, then we take them as prophetic statements that were accurate.

These same prophets also spoke of a future millennium, and rather then taking their statements with as much authority and accuracy, such are placed into figures of speech.

That seems most inconsistent and unwarranted.

 

[agedman]

The link was offered as a place in which a great number of prophecies are given and were the prophets give specifics concerning the millennial reign character.

Perhaps, it would be good for those who do not "like" a certain remark to be specific at what point an error is made.

 

[Iconoclast]

agedman,

You are mixing times and places.

I think there is a biblical shift so it is necessary;
8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:

9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;

10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

By shifting from "literally fulfilled" to "now there's a transition" you remove what should be held as factually fulfilled in the future as spiritually fulfilled now.[/QUOTE]
Well Agedman, that is one of the major points in contention.I do not think the OT.manner of doing things runs parallel to what happens in the NT.
I think their is a new paradigm introduced by Jesus.
The Kingdom clearly has begun, John the Baptist announced it, and jesus spoke of it as beginning. It is progressive , ongoing, and growing.
Part of it is yet future for sure...

Rather, appoint to this age that which is this age and for the grace of this age.

Appoint to that future age that which is for that age and the rule of that age.

You see this as a clear distinction I see it as much more of a blended situation...

Christ does not rule and reign on the earth from the throne of heaven.

Sure He does.....this is without question;
30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.

36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

God said to Him, "sit here beside be UNTIL I make your enemies your footstool.

"

yes....
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Jesus rules in the midst of His enemies....He asks Saul Saul, why do you persecute ME?

The church is to bring the truth of reconciliation (as Paul stated is the mission), but that is not the evidence of the mission of the church in the millennium.

the church preached the Kingdom;

22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

Acts28;
30 And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him,

31 Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.

 

[Covenanter]

When I lived in the Dallas area, I listened in on this mans teaching, and though in some areas there were disagreement, he was sound in dealing with the topic of the millennium.

It isn’t a long read, but he does address some of the issues concerning the OT prophecies.

Look forward to the reader responses to his thinking.

The Millennium in the Old Testament | Millennium | Lamb and Lion Ministries

My immediate response is that the author "allegorises" OC prophecy to read Israel & Christ's millennium kingdom into prophecy.

Much the same way as we "spiritualise" OC prophecy to read the Church & Christ's present spiritual kingdom into prophecy.

Quoting random & ill-considered amil comments does not advance the premil argument. Nor does the converse apply.

Scriptural discussions between truth seekers, as on this forum, & this thread, are needed.

The link was offered as a place in which a great number of prophecies are given and were the prophets give specifics concerning the millennial reign character.

Perhaps, it would be good for those who do not "like" a certain remark to be specific at what point an error is made.

A key point in the linked article:

I knew my audience would be made up of people who believed that a future reign of Jesus on this earth is mentioned only one place in the Bible — in Revelation 20. So, I decided to spend all my time talking about one passage in the Old Testament — the prophecy contained in Zechariah 14:1-9.

This prophecy states that a day will come when Jerusalem will be surrounded by enemy forces. Half the city will fall, and then the Lord will return to the Mount of Olives. When His feet touch the mountain, it will split in half, and the Jewish remnant will flee from the city and hide in the cleavage of the mountain. The Lord will then speak a supernatural word, and all the enemy forces will be instantly destroyed. And at that point, “…the Lord will be king over all the earth” (verse 9).

The other speaker, who followed me, totally ignored my presentation. He read an academic paper based on the opinions of theologians and not the Scriptures.

When the time came for questions, the other speaker was asked, “What is your explanation of Zechariah 14:1-9?” His exact words in response were, “I have no idea what that passage means, but I can assure you that it has been fulfilled somewhere at sometime.”

Obviously a very unsatisfactory exchange, that proves the amil speaker was seriously unprepared, & unfamiliar with key arguments.

The problem is that all protagonists (including Reagan) start with asserting what they are trying to prove, & therefore fail to prove what they are proving.

A further problem is that Zechariah has only one chapter relevant to the millennium - 14 - & the previous chapters are all accepted as having been fulfilled in the life & ministry of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Zec. 9 shows Jesus' triumphal entry into Jerusalem.
Zec. 10 promises full deliverance & regathering of the people of Israel.
Zec. 11 shows the Good Shepherd standing against the evil shepherds.
Zec. 12 shows the deliverance of Jerusalem by the Messiah - the house of David shall be like God, like the Angel of the Lord before them. 9 It shall be in that day that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
And the Holy Spirit is seen to be poured out as on the day of Pentecost. Immediately followed by baptism.
Zec. 13 Baptism. Then the end of prophecy. In the previous prophets, all except Haggai, Zechariah & Malachi prophesying before or during the exile, & therefore having a primary fulfilment in the return. There was an ultimate fulfilment in the NH&NE, & a Messianic Kingdom fulfilment which is generally understood to be either pre- or a-millennial.
We all see prophecy referring to the Messiah & his incarnation & saving work, & the spread of the Gospel through the Gentile nations, followed by resurrection & judgment.
Jesus quotes Zec. 13:7 as fulfilled by his arrest & crucifixion. Then 1/3 of the nation will come through the refining tribulation & -
They will call on My name,
And I will answer them.
I will say, ‘This is My people’;
And each one will say, ‘The Lord is my God.’”
So we have Jesus' saving work FINISHED.

What about Jerusalem, & what about Zec. 14?
See Gal. 4 & Hebrews.
There is an earthly, carnal Jerusalem, in bondage, & a spiritual, heavenly Jerusalem. The citizens of carnal Jerusalem persecute the citizens of heavenly Jerusalem.
Prophecy must be understood in that light.
There is the carnal, ethnic nation of Israel, & the spiritual, redeemed people of Israel. Premil theology confuses issue & prioritises the carnal rather than the spiritual.

tbc.

 

[Covenanter]

Gabriel announces the fulfilment of prophecy, God's purposes for Israel, in 70 weeks, ending in the 30s AD.

“Seventy weeks are determined
For your people and for your holy city,
To finish the transgression,
To make an end of sins,
To make reconciliation for iniquity,
To bring in everlasting righteousness,
To seal up vision and prophecy,
And to anoint the Most Holy.​

That prophecy has been discussed & despite efforts by those who claim "literal interpretation" by separating week 70 from week 69 by 2,000 years, that prophecy declares the FINISHED work of Christ - salvation blessings for the redeemed. As the prophecy continues we see judgment & destruction for those who reject Messiah. A destruction that took place in AD 70, as prophesied by the Lord Jesus Christ on Mt. Olivet.

Earthly Jerusalem & the temple would be destroyed; instead a heavenly Jerusalem would be established, inhabited by the redeemed people of God who would be built into a living temple for the worship of God.

We have two Jerusalems, carnal & spiritual. We need to understand that as we seek to interpret prophecy.

"Literalising" prophecy into a future millennium, with rebuilt Jerusalem, rebuilt temple, restored ethnic Israel, ruled by Jesus in person, sitting on David's throne in Jerusalem, wielding an iron rod to smash his enemies as they rebel is carnal, carnalising to an extreme. Do premils envisage Jesus & his redeemed people involved in such personal warfare? I don't object to you rejoicing in a perfect fulfilment of Isaiah 11-12, but I cannot see our glorious God-man redeemer personally involved in fighting.

No! As Rev. 19 puts it:

11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:
KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.​

The victorious Jesus is seen in heaven; the sharp sword of his mouth is his word, with which he speaks judgment as the wrath of God destroys his enemies. His many crowns are many diadems - jewelled ribbons around his high priestly turban, as worn by eastern princes. I submit that it's blasphemy to literalise that glorious vision the way the premils do.

In his longsuffering mercy God allows the ungodly to continue, as the scoffers of Peter's letter, even allowing them to persecute the godly who call them to repentance & full & free forgiveness. But the day of the scoffers will come to an end when Jesus returns, as it did in AD 70.

So in Zec. 14 we see the two Jerusalems at war. Jesus said he would come, & he did deliver the godly 1/3 from the city. No longer was earthly Jerusalem the centre of the Gospel, but the living water of the Holy Spirit flowed out in all directions. And:

And the Lord shall be King over all the earth.
In that day it shall be—
“The Lord is one,” And His name one.​

The plagues are the judgment of hell. And the feast of tabernacles? Believers are presently outside the camp, in booths wherever we worship, but in the presence of our Saviour God wherever we worship.

We ARE citizens of the glorious heavenly Jerusalem, heavenly Kingdom of our Saviour God, though it may not look like it. We see the invisible, as the OC saints did. I'll give Hebrews the last word:

10 We have an altar from which those who serve the tabernacle have no right to eat. 11 For the bodies of those animals, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned outside the camp. 12 Therefore Jesus also, that He might sanctify the people with His own blood, suffered outside the gate. 13 Therefore let us go forth to Him, outside the camp, bearing His reproach. 14 For here we have no continuing city, but we seek the one to come. 15 Therefore by Him let us continually offer the sacrifice of praise to God, that is, the fruit of our lips, giving thanks to His name. 16 But do not forget to do good and to share, for with such sacrifices God is well pleased.​

 

[agedman]

Amazing!

In the previous two posts, Covenanter accepts as factual the first advent.

He even shows how Zachariah accurately prophecies the events of the first advent.

However, Covenanter then proceeds to attempt to show the second as not accurately portrayed but is somehow "spiritualized." He attempts to put forth that the physical events that happen to the physical Jerusalem on this earth will not occur, the poor prophet must have written in error, or God was inaccurate concerning the second advent.

Why?

Are such events as Zachariah too outside the parameters of human conception that they must not be taken as factual?

That must be how the Scribes and Pharisees viewed the virgin birth, the triumphal entry, the crucifixion... Such just could not be true for it didn't fit their cognitive scheme and their own notions of what the desired.

Could it be that the desires to conform the Scriptures to ones own preconceived thinking is actually doing what the posts accused the writer of the article as doing?

There is no conflicting presentation by Christ's literal physical return. The events of Zachariah are just as literal of the second advent as he was of the first.

There is absolutely no indication given by Zachariah to even attempt to assume the statements are figures of speech that must by spiritualized, and there is certainly no indication either in the testimony of Christ nor the writing of the prophets that some end of prophecy concerning physical factual events ended in the 13 chapter and that the prophecy of the chapter 14 is any less factual and physically real.

 

[Covenanter]

Agedman -
may I suggest you read, reread, my posts before a further reply, & quote what you are specifically refuting.