Corporate Election

You so obviously do not realize that "5 point calvinism" can either be a "4 point" or a "modified 5 point."

Just so you recognize, there are some that view "limited atonement" should actually be "limited belief."

That such is more consistent with the Scriptures and places the truth of the shed blood for all as actually shed for all.

Some hold to a "sufficient for all, efficient for some" standard. And, such may actually have some Scripture traction, so as not to be completely rejected.

However, your own personal struggle with "limited atonement" should not be used to discredit the other points of truth.

All have and do sin. All come short of God's glory. All have turned to their own ways. There is none righteous, not a single one. (total depravity- inability)

All that the Father gives the Son will come to Him and will be raised. (unconditional election)

It is the unmerited favor of God that one is saved. (irresistible grace)

Nothing separates you from the love of God in Christ Jesus. (perseverance/preservation)



So, "Saved-by-grace" which of those points are not Scripture and found in the Scriptures?

 

Limited Atonement "binds" T.U.I., "P" is on its own. As the Bible clearly teaches that Jesus Christ did "tasted death for each and every person", "L" is a non-starter, and "T.U.I." fall!

 

Were "Individuals" of Israel called out, or was the nation called as a body politic?

Were "Individual" called upon to believe and then gathered into assemblies, or was a political body called?

According to the Scriptures, the gentile believers are "grafted into" the believers of the Israel, not the political body Israel.

Going to your use of the Greek. the "called out ones" are individuals called out and grouped, not a group that is regrouped into a larger group.

OT Israel had twelve sons, who formed what is called the twelve tribes, united at only two times (the exodus through most of Joshua) but starting with the Judges until David separated by family. Then after being united by David, and then following the death of Solomon, again separated into family groupings. This is no pattern of a church, unless it involves splits, disfellowshipping, and election by family names - titles - or who is related to whom.

So, as you demanded, I have sufficiently shown your need of modification to your thinking in hope that it is helpful.

 

Oh, my! Whoever taught you that removing one destroyed all others was just as wrong as can be.

Each part of T.U.L.I.P stands upon its own Scriptures. One area does not rely nor demand the compliance of any other part. One can reject or modify any and still hold the rest as valid.

I showed you both the Scripture support and the reason why I personally (and many others are also) modified one area.

But, if you think that they are inter-related and removing or modification of one part destroys the rest, the educator of your teaching was not presenting the truth.

 

The "elect", or "chosen ones" are those who have repented and been converted by the Holy Spirit, and then become part of the Church of the Lord Jesus Christ. When this takes place, they are "elected". It it after they are converted and not before. The individuals who are saved, "join" the Church, which is the Body of the Called-out. Are you suggesting that Israel as a nation was not the "elect" of God? The Church in 1 Peter 2:9 is called "a holy nation".

 

They stand or fall together, that is why they were presented as FIVE POINTS, which were a response to the Reformed theologian, Jakob Hermanszoon.

 

I am running out of time (and so is this thread).

The Bride of Christ is a total unit of all believers of all ages in one group.

But do not confuse that "grouping of believers into assemblies" as that of the same as the election of Israel. The election of Israel was based upon the call of God to Abraham and the promise given to him. It was a family and peculiar election of a specific family.

The call of the believers is the call of God by God (Christ) to individuals irrespective of any family, status, race, ... and individual believers endowed and secured individually being promoted and promised individually as adopted sons.

Completely different "election" process and application.

The desire to blend one into the other as some "type" being representative, may have certain approval in some areas, but when it comes to salvation as actual adopted sons of God, that is only and always has been from the very beginning of Genesis specific election of believers.

 

Again, you have been misinformed.

Though they may certainly all seem interrelated, and integrated, the elements of the individual 5 points stand alone.

Total depravity is a separate issue yet related to the rest.

Irresistible grace is a separate issue, yet related to the rest.

And so it goes.

Just because I may be related to my brother does not mean my brother must pay for my sinful living, excess, and reputation.

Jakob Hermanszoon (Arminian) was a person who was mistaken in more than one area.

However, He was BEFORE the Dutch Reformers who formed the 5 points of Calvinism in rejection of his teaching.

In my opinion, the Dutch Reformers were too reactionary, and many have agreed and why more and more are 4 point calvinist thinking and not 5 point.

Perhaps, you think that Jakob destroyed Calvinistic 5 point thinking?

How can you destroy what was yet to be "Invented" before he died?

 

All I am saying is that the Five Points of Calvinism, as they are known, were a reaction to what Jakob Hermanszoon had put forward after his research into reformed theology.

 

Actually, he WAS a reformed theologian, who (as Calvin and others) was attempting to reform, yet not separate from, the Papist scheme. To me, such reformation was as unlikely as the Puritans trying to purify the English church. A failure and opening for excess and division.

To that end, there were multiple schemes (mostly forgotten) from those centuries, but ultimately there was and is a single standard that all must adhere.

Unless the scheme is presenting what truthful examination will validate as faithful to the Scriptures, in spite of any human affections to the contrary, that unfaithful scheme must fail.

The theologians were not writing Scriptures, nor should the schemes be looked upon as the final authority. Rather, every generation of believers must examine all matters in light of the principles and statements of the Scriptures. If there is any truth, that which consistently presents the Scriptures must be valued, that which does not should either be modified or discarded.

Personally, in my handling Scriptures, it became evident to me that the “limited atonement” thinking was just not completely conformed to the Scripture truth as it should be.

(Imo), the lack of conformity was due to the political/social structures of which the men of that time had to contend obliging a view that I find uncomfortably contrary to the consistent presentation of both the OT and NT Scriptures. So, seeking greater alignment the limit was moved from atonement to belief. That allowed long troublesome Scriptures to easily be seen as reconciled and agreement that belief was truly the sole standard of life and death.

 

Having read through your post #124 again, I'm afraid it still seems Pelagian to me. You say that people have an innate God-given ability to choose good or evil (contra Jeremiah 13:23 but let that pass), but you do not say that a prevenient work of grace by God is necessary for someone to be saved. This is what @SheepWhisperer stated in Post #129, and you have endorsed that, so I am happy to accept that his post represents your true view. It's still wrong, but it is within the bounds of orthodoxy.

 

Complete rubbish! I do not believe that "total inability" is anywhere found in the Word of God, otherwise the offer of the Gospel to the entire human race would be no more than a farce! In fact, since the Gospel is the Good News that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, it is only sincere when it follows that His death was not only "sufficient" for the sins of the whole human race, but also "available" for each and every sinner. Without this, the whole Gospel offer is insincere, which is impossible for God! I am fully convinced that this doctrine in itself, the universal offer of the Gospel, does by itself destroy any "limit" on the death/blood of Jesus Christ, and removes any notion that He died for the "elect" only. John 16 states that the Holy Spirit "convicts the world of sin...because they do not believe" in the Lord Jesus Christ, which is personal responsibility. Yes, God had made sure that every human has the "inbuilt" ability to "accept" or "reject" the Gospel. Jesus says this much in John 5:39-40, where the Greek says "you WILL NOT come to Me", which cannot be taken to mean, "you CANNOT come", as some hold!

 

Yet just a chapter further on the Lord Jesus declares, "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him' (John 6:44). So which is true? Both! Men cannot not come to Christ because they will not. Their foolish hearts are darkened and they prefer darkness rather than light.

 

You might need to look at this to resolve some misconceptions about total depravity. The support of Scripture is used throughout.

“While often misunderstood, the doctrine of total depravity is an acknowledgement that the Bible teaches that as a result of the fall of man (Genesis 3:6) every part of man—his mind, will, emotions and flesh—have been corrupted by sin. In other words, sin affects all areas of our being including who we are and what we do. It penetrates to the very core of our being so that everything is tainted by sin and “…all our righteous acts are like filthy rags” before a holy God (Isaiah 64:6). It acknowledges that the Bible teaches that we sin because we are sinners by nature. Or, as Jesus says, “So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.” (Matthew 7:17-18).

The total depravity of man is seen throughout the Bible. Man’s heart is “deceitful and desperately wicked” (Jeremiah 17:9). The Bible also teaches us that man is born dead in transgression and sin (Psalm 51:5, Psalm 58:3, Ephesians 2:1-5). The Bible teaches that because unregenerate man is “dead in transgressions” (Ephesians 2:5), he is held captive by a love for sin (John 3:19; John 8:34) so that he will not seek God (Romans 3:10-11) because he loves the darkness (John 3:19) and does not understand the things of God (1 Corinthians 2:14). Therefore, men suppress the truth of God in unrighteousness (Romans 1:18) and continue to willfully live in sin. Because they are totally depraved, this sinful lifestyle seems right to men (Proverbs 14:12) so they reject the gospel of Christ as foolishness (1 Corinthians 1:18) and their mind is “hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is unable to do so” (Romans 8:7).

The Apostle Paul summarizes the total depravity of man in Romans 3:9-18. He begins this passage by saying that “both Jews and Greeks are all under sin.” Simply put, this means that man is under the control of sin or is controlled by his sin nature (his natural tendency to sin). The fact that unregenerate people are controlled by their selfish, sinful tendencies should not come as a surprise to any parent. What parent has to teach his or her child to be selfish, to covet what someone else has or to lie? Those actions come naturally from the child’s sin nature. Instead, the parent must devote much time to teaching the child the importance of telling the truth, of sharing instead of being selfish, of obeying instead of rebelling, etc.

Then in the rest of this passage Paul quotes extensively from the Old Testament in explaining how sinful man really is. For example, we see that 1—no one is without sin, 2—no one seeks after God, 3—there is no one who is good, 4—their speech is corrupted by sin, 5—their actions are corrupted by sin, and 6—above all, they have no fear of God. So, when one considers even these few verses, it becomes abundantly clear the Bible does indeed teach that fallen man is “totally depraved,” because sin affects all of him including his mind, will and emotions so that “there is none who does good, no not one” (Romans 3:12).

There is a common misconception regarding total depravity. Total depravity does not mean that man is as wicked or sinful as he could be, nor does it mean that man is without a conscience or any sense of right or wrong. Neither does it mean that man does not or cannot do things that seem to be good when viewed from a human perspective or measured against a human standard. It does not even mean that man cannot do things that seem to conform outwardly to the law of God. What the Bible does teach and what total depravity does recognize is that even the “good” things man does are tainted by sin because they are not done for the glory of God and out of faith in Him (Romans 14:23; Hebrews 11:6). While man looks upon the outward acts and judges them to be good, God looks upon not only the outward acts but also the inward motives that lie behind them, and because they proceed from a heart that is in rebellion against Him and they are not done for His glory, even these good deeds are like “filthy rags” in His sight. In other words, fallen man’s good deeds are motivated not by a desire to please God but by our own self-interest and are thus corrupted to the point where God declares that there is “no one who does good, no not one!”

(Taken from, Total depravity - is it biblical?).