Corporate Election

[Saved-By-Grace]

Would day that it is another way to view the atonement, its just that penal substitution is the more accurate way to view it!

either it is right or not? you cannot say just another "way". Calvinism teaches the death of Jesus Christ was only to save the "elect"; the rest of Evangelical Christianity disagrees. Are these all teaching a "false" Doctrine on the death of Jesus? Only one can be right and the other wrong! The wrong can only be "heresy", which is "false doctrine". It is that simple!

 

[agedman]

if this is at me, you are talking nonsense! Just because some believe something to be true, like "Calvinism", does not mean that it is. And to say this "system" represents a "false gospel", is correct because it is NOT Biblical in much of what it teaches!

I do not dispute that some assignments fall outside the principles I find in Scriptures, but that is true with other theories as well.

What is valuable is that you do recognize what is true, and what is not within that thinking. That is as The Apostle expresses one should sift everything through the Scriptures to hold that which is correct as gold and discard the rest.

I personally must modify the “L” of tulip to fit what I consider much more consistent to the Scriptures.

You also would push back (if I am correct) with the depavity “T” as being total. Yet, if I recall correctly, you agree with some kind of prevenient/preceding Grace.

That means you actually do hold to total depravity being also total inability. For it is inconsistent to have God making some provision of Grace if the person is, out of their own innate freedom of the fallen will, able to achieve salvation outside such grace.

Am I correct in how your thinking goes thus far?

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

I do not dispute that some assignments fall outside the principles I find in Scriptures, but that is true with other theories as well.

What is valuable is that you do recognize what is true, and what is not within that thinking. That is as The Apostle expresses one should sift everything through the Scriptures to hold that which is correct as gold and discard the rest.

I personally must modify the “L” of tulip to fit what I consider much more consistent to the Scriptures.

You also would push back (if I am correct) with the depavity “T” as being total. Yet, if I recall correctly, you agree with some kind of prevenient/preceding Grace.

That means you actually do hold to total depravity being also total inability. For it is inconsistent to have God making some provision of Grace if the person is, out of their own innate freedom of the fallen will, able to achieve salvation outside such grace.

Am I correct in how your thinking goes thus far?

I do not much care for man-made definitions like "total depravity" or "total inability", as they do not fully represent what the Bible actually teaches. Jesus says that spiritual dead, "shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live" (John 5:25). Which says that even though ALL the spiritual dead (lost) WILL hear the Gospel Message, only those who "hear as to accept" this Message, will be saved. It ALL were "dead" as to not be able to "respond", then they cannot "hear". Nor can God, "command all men everywhere to repent" (Acts 17:30), if they cannot, because they have not been thus "enabled" by the Holy Spirit.

 

[Mr. Davis]

Like Judas, and the false prophets and false teaches and heretics of 2 Peter 2.1! Stick to Scripture and not fanciful theology!

Like the Jehovah's Witnesses, who came from the SDA, do you claim that yours is the ONLY way to be saved?

If so, the SDA is rightly called a CULT. Only cults claim "to have a corner on Absolute Truth."

Christian denominations, Calvinist or Arminian, AGREE on the fundamentals of the Christian faith. They
DO NOT claim "to have a corner on Absolute Truth," and substitute their own ideas for historical doctrine.
BOTH Calvinist AND Arminian believers will be found in heaven.

For example, both the Witnesses and the SDA teach that Christ is the Archangel Michael. This is a
blasphemous substitution of MEN'S ideas for the Historical Doctrine of Who Christ Is. Christ is unquestionably GOD, not a Created Being!

In addition, both cults teach "Soul Sleep." The dead are not conscious. There are many Scriptures to
refute this idea of MAN. But the best comes from the words of our Lord HIMSELF. In Luke 16, not only
are the dead conscious, but the Rich Man experiences the flames of Hell! This is no parable. A name
is mentioned. Lazarus. Jesus never named individuals in his parables. Note that both the Jehovah's
Witnesses and the SDA teach that there is no Hell. God is too loving, they say.

Other doctrines could be mentioned.

Perhaps Bob Ryan will get genuinely saved!

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

Like the Jehovah's Witnesses, who came from the SDA, do you claim that yours is the ONLY way to be saved?

If so, the SDA is rightly called a CULT. Only cults claim "to have a corner on Absolute Truth."

Christian denominations, Calvinist or Arminian, AGREE on the fundamentals of the Christian faith. They
DO NOT claim "to have a corner on Absolute Truth," and substitute their own ideas for historical doctrine.
BOTH Calvinist AND Arminian believers will be found in heaven.

For example, both the Witnesses and the SDA teach that Christ is the Archangel Michael. This is a
blasphemous substitution of MEN'S ideas for the Historical Doctrine of Who Christ Is. Christ is unquestionably GOD, not a Created Being!

In addition, both cults teach "Soul Sleep." The dead are not conscious. There are many Scriptures to
refute this idea of MAN. But the best comes from the words of our Lord HIMSELF. In Luke 16, not only
are the dead conscious, but the Rich Man experiences the flames of Hell! This is no parable. A name
is mentioned. Lazarus. Jesus never named individuals in his parables. Note that both the Jehovah's
Witnesses and the SDA teach that there is no Hell. God is too loving, they say.

Other doctrines could be mentioned.

Perhaps Bob Ryan will get genuinely saved!

what has this got to do with anything that I have said?

 

[Mr. Davis]

what has this got to do with anything that I have said?

You are a PHONY and a FALSE teacher like all SDA and JW's!!

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

You are a PHONY and a FALSE teacher like all SDA and JW's!!

you can't accept any truth if it does not agree with your "system". Too much depending on TC!

 

[Yeshua1]

either it is right or not? you cannot say just another "way". Calvinism teaches the death of Jesus Christ was only to save the "elect"; the rest of Evangelical Christianity disagrees. Are these all teaching a "false" Doctrine on the death of Jesus? Only one can be right and the other wrong! The wrong can only be "heresy", which is "false doctrine". It is that simple!

No, for those who hold to Jesus died for all still see Him saving sinners....

Those like SDA really do hold with and teach another/false Gospel!

 

[Van]

The Bible states that the blood of Jesus purchased back to God lost sinners, but not all sinners, only those whom Jesus died in the place of!

Utter nonsense, everyone was bought with a price, even those never to be saved.

 

[agedman]

you can't accept any truth if it does not agree with your "system". Too much depending on TC!

I doubt TC is monitoring at this time. But if you think the post inappropriate, then report it so that the administration will be aware.

 

[agedman]

Utter nonsense, everyone was bought with a price, even those never to be saved.

This is ransom theory, in which some debt was due to either God or Satan.

It is not a Scriptural view, for God gave, He was never bought off.

The Ransom Theory is just ugly and is truly “utter nonsense.”

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

I doubt TC is monitoring at this time. But if you think the post inappropriate, then report it so that the administration will be aware.

I am talking of Mr Davis' unhealthy "dependence" of TC, whom he seems to mention to me far too much!

 

[Yeshua1]

Utter nonsense, everyone was bought with a price, even those never to be saved.

Except that the Bible states that Jesus saved and purchase some back, as He was and is the High Priest over the many, but not the all!

 

[Yeshua1]

This is ransom theory, in which some debt was due to either God or Satan.

It is not a Scriptural view, for God gave, He was never bought off.

The Ransom Theory is just ugly and is truly “utter nonsense.”

God was not "bought off", but there was a sin debt owed to Him for us breaking His Law!

 

[Mr. Davis]

No, for those who hold to Jesus died for all still see Him saving sinners....

Those like SDA really do hold with and teach another/false Gospel!

ABSOLUTELY right, Y1!

According to Paul in Galatians, they are accursed by God. No true believer can ever fall from Grace.
They cling to the Law for salvation, so they were NEVER in Grace to begin with!

 

[Mr. Davis]

This is ransom theory, in which some debt was due to either God or Satan.

It is not a Scriptural view, for God gave, He was never bought off.

The Ransom Theory is just ugly and is truly “utter nonsense.”

Ransom Theory is vigorously advanced by BOTH the SDA and JWs!

agedman may disagree with me, and I with him, sometimes.

HERE he is Absolutely Right!

 

[agedman]

God was not "bought off", but there was a sin debt owed to Him for us breaking His Law!

Believers owe a debt of love, as the song by Isaac Watts would lyric,

But drops of grief can ne’er repay
The debt of love I owe;
Here Lord, I give myself away:
’Tis all that I can do.
​

Sin pays a wage, it isn’t a debt to be paid.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

WHY do Calvinists and Reformed find it so difficult to see what the Bible says, because sinful man REFUSES to believe. Acts 13:46 is very clear on this,

"Then Paul and Barnabas boldly said: “It was necessary that God’s message be spoken to you first. But since you reject it and consider yourselves unworthy of eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiles"

Two points here. 1. these Jews REJECTED the Gospel, which shows they had the WILL to do so, because we read in verse 48 that the Gentiles "accepted" this same Message. 2. It very clearly says that the Jews, and NOT God, considered themselves not worthy of eternal life! This is the Word of God to those who can accept it!

You seem not to understand. People do not reject Christ because of some physical incapability; They reject Him because of their own wicked hearts. They do indeed REFUSE to believe although it is obvious that the universe could not have created itself. They don't WANT to believe because they don't want to acknowledge God. So their inability is moral and for that they are culpable.

But God in His mercy has decreed salvation for a vast crowd of guilty sinners and has given them to the Son to redeem and to the Spirit to seal for the day of Redemption (Ephesians 1:3-14). He has redeemed them at measureless cost, and not one of them will be lost (John 6:39 etc.).

 

[Revmitchell]

You seem not to understand.

Oh he, like many others, understand your position quite well. The fact that you have accused him of not understanding shows it is you who doesn't understand. The thing you are not understanding is that while he and I fully understand your errant position we will argue for the truth of scripture. Once you begin to understand that you will be at peace.

 

[Mr. Davis]

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