OSAS does not survive the "sola scriptura" test

Rom 11 "you stand only by your FAITH"
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

"otherwise" is pointing to a different future - instead of a "continue in his kindness" future - the one who 'stands by faith" may in the future choose some other course and is being warned not to do that... warned to "persevere" as Paul also says in Romans 2.

you can not fail to "continue" to persevere in something you never had to start with -- your statement is expressed in the form of a self-contradiction so that it could never happen -- which is a good example of what we do NOT find Paul writing in Romans 11.

You said "If you are a tare, you will not persevere." -- you will not persevere "in what"??? (That is what I keep asking).

Do you really think the tares do not 'persevere in being lost'??? really? And then do you claim to failure to persevere in being lost - will end up in getting them to be lost??

OR are you admitting that they "do not persevere in staying saved"???

It is the Bible that gives us the warning --


Rom 11 "you stand only by your FAITH"
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

God wrote the Bible.

 

By definition - "continuing" is "persevering" -- at some point OSAS needs to stand up to the facts.

Romans 2 also affirms the same point for those who "persevere"

5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who will render to each person according to his deeds: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God. 12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

It is not the fallen Jews that are getting the warning... it is those who "STAND by their faith" that are being warned

Rom 11 "you stand only by your FAITH"
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear.


Yep they were believers and they stand by faith.

21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

 

Hebrews 6 does not say "never were saved".. you cannot "fall" if you are not standing.

4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

 

Turns out we can use it that way in English too.

The usage indicates continuing steadfastly -- and in Romans 2 it is "in doing good" vs "doing evil". Context matters in the realm of proper exegesis.

Rom 2
5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who will render to each person according to his deeds: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;

So then -- instead of getting "the wrath of God" seen in Rev 14 and Rev 15 - Romans 2 says the "other option" is to get - "eternal life".

But vs 7 focuses on those who get "eternal life" and notice that they "persevere IN DOING good" and in seeking for immortality.


By contrast we have the "other option" in vs 8 for those who "Do EVIL" and "do not obey the truth"

8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,


10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God. 12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

Nothing at all in the chapter about those in heaven being subjected to the "wrath of God", tribulation etc -- even though this is "the heaven" some have imagined for us.

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And it brings the same perseverance subject that we see in Romans 11

but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.

It is not the fallen Jews that are getting the warning... it is those who "STAND by their faith" that are being warned

Rom 11 "you stand only by your FAITH"
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear.


Yep they were believers and they stand by faith.

21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

 

]Hebrews 6 does not say "never were saved".. you cannot "fall" if you are not standing.

4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

1. you can't fall from grace without first being under Grace -- and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come

2. The idea that those under Grace have no salvation is foreign to the Bible so you simply "quote yourself"..

Fine you have free will and you can continue to 'quote you' as the "authority" for your doctrine -- but I prefer the actual Bible.

 

1. You have free will and are welcome to simply "affirm your preferences" rather than look at the Bible details I have highlighted. Each one can choose that same path if they wish - and "Everyone doing so" would not have allowed the Protestant Reformation to get off the ground in the first place -- as I am sure you and I would both agree.

2. In my previous post I narrowed the "detail" down to a precise contradiction between your statement and the actual Bible details on that very point. It appears you are happy to leave it at that - and I have no objection to it either.

3. You could post "OSAS is bible truth" a 100 times and I could respond "OSAS is doctrinal error according to the Bible" 100 times --- would be pointless.

4. OR I could respond with the same Bible texts showing where it fails the test of scripture again and again. Bringing up those same bible details that you might prefer not to address.

In any case you have free will - and I am not trying to at all change your mind against your will. Neither am I arguing that those who oppose the Bible details I bring up on this topic are not saved.

 

Hebrews 6 carefully details the saved state of those who were saved then fell and were nonredeemable -- Romans 11 by contrast details the case of those who though saved ... may fall and yet are still redeemable "His is able to graft them in AGAIN if they do not continue in unbelief"

 

Not true at all.

In Romans 11 they are simply warned to stay away from unbelief -- they have not had salvation revoked yet.
In Heb 6 - they fell from grace - from full participation in salvation - they had it... they lost it.

 

Nice!

 

John 1:11 "He came to His OWN and His OWN received Him not"