OSAS does not survive the "sola scriptura" test

[BobRyan]

Rom 11 "you stand only by your FAITH"
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

"otherwise" is pointing to a different future - instead of a "continue in his kindness" future - the one who 'stands by faith" may in the future choose some other course and is being warned not to do that... warned to "persevere" as Paul also says in Romans 2.

you can not fail to "continue" to persevere in something you never had to start with -- your statement is expressed in the form of a self-contradiction so that it could never happen -- which is a good example of what we do NOT find Paul writing in Romans 11.

No, it is not. If you are saved, you will persevere. If you are a tare, you will not persevere.

You said "If you are a tare, you will not persevere." -- you will not persevere "in what"??? (That is what I keep asking).

Do you really think the tares do not 'persevere in being lost'??? really? And then do you claim to failure to persevere in being lost - will end up in getting them to be lost??

OR are you admitting that they "do not persevere in staying saved"???

Fir it is GOF who works and wills in us, and he will keep all who are saved, or else Jesus and Jude both lied to us!

It is the Bible that gives us the warning --


Rom 11 "you stand only by your FAITH"
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

God wrote the Bible.

 

[Yeshua1]

Rom 11 "you stand only by your FAITH"
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

"otherwise" is pointing to a different future - instead of a "continue in his kindness" future - the one who 'stands by faith" may in the future choose some other course and is being warned not to do that... warned to "persevere" as Paul also says in Romans 2.

you can not fail to "continue" to persevere in something you never had to start with -- your statement is expressed in the form of a self-contradiction so that it could never happen -- which is a good example of what we do NOT find Paul writing in Romans 11.



You said "If you are a tare, you will not persevere." -- you will not persevere "in what"??? (That is what I keep asking).

Do you really think the tares do not 'persevere in being lost'??? really? And then do you claim to failure to persevere in being lost - will end up in getting them to be lost??

OR are you admitting that they "do not persevere in staying saved"???



It is the Bible that gives us the warning --


Rom 11 "you stand only by your FAITH"
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

God wrote the Bible.

Same type of warning God gave to us in Hebrews Chapter 6, as point in both passages is that there are mere professors of Jesus who are not really saved, and they will prove that by falling by the wayside!

 

[BobRyan]

1) What verse did you cite which says persevere?

By definition - "continuing" is "persevering" -- at some point OSAS needs to stand up to the facts.

Romans 2 also affirms the same point for those who "persevere"

5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who will render to each person according to his deeds: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God. 12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

Were the Jews that were cut off believers? Nope, they were non-believers, and therefore not true Israel. So no loss of salvation under the New Covenant is being taught.

It is not the fallen Jews that are getting the warning... it is those who "STAND by their faith" that are being warned

Rom 11 "you stand only by your FAITH"
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear.


Yep they were believers and they stand by faith.

21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

 

[BobRyan]

Same type of warning God gave to us in Hebrews Chapter 6, as point in both passages is that there are mere professors of Jesus who are not really saved, and they will prove that by falling by the wayside!

Hebrews 6 does not say "never were saved".. you cannot "fall" if you are not standing.

4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

 

[Yeshua1]

Hebrews 6 does not say "never were saved".. you cannot "fall" if you are not standing.

4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

Those who fell from Grace there were never saved though, as the author contrasts yjem with the surety o those he is writing to, who are good soils, and not mere proffers as in Chapter 6!

 

[Van]

By definition - "continuing" is "persevering" -- at some point OSAS needs to stand up to the facts.

Romans 2 also affirms the same point for those who "persevere"

5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who will render to each person according to his deeds: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God. 12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

Thanks for actually answering my question!1 How refreshing!!

The Greek word translated "perseverance" in the version you quoted in red, means to hold steady under a load. Picture a burro being loaded. As the weight is added, a burro might figit or move or kick, but one that stands fast, and holds steady is exhibiting "hypomone." (G5281).

The usage indicates continuing steadfastly in whatever ministry is being engaged in. So here, if a person does not persevere, they would face loss of rewards, not loss of salvation. Note alos the concept of doing good. To repeat, only those born anew are able to do good, all the righteous deeds of the lost are as filthy rags to God.

 

[BobRyan]

Thanks for actually answering my question!1 How refreshing!!

The Greek word translated "perseverance" in the version you quoted in red, means to hold steady under a load.

Turns out we can use it that way in English too.

The usage indicates continuing steadfastly -- and in Romans 2 it is "in doing good" vs "doing evil". Context matters in the realm of proper exegesis.

Rom 2
5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who will render to each person according to his deeds: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;

So then -- instead of getting "the wrath of God" seen in Rev 14 and Rev 15 - Romans 2 says the "other option" is to get - "eternal life".

But vs 7 focuses on those who get "eternal life" and notice that they "persevere IN DOING good" and in seeking for immortality.


By contrast we have the "other option" in vs 8 for those who "Do EVIL" and "do not obey the truth"

8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,


10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God. 12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

Nothing at all in the chapter about those in heaven being subjected to the "wrath of God", tribulation etc -- even though this is "the heaven" some have imagined for us.

=========================

And it brings the same perseverance subject that we see in Romans 11

but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.

It is not the fallen Jews that are getting the warning... it is those who "STAND by their faith" that are being warned

Rom 11 "you stand only by your FAITH"
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear.


Yep they were believers and they stand by faith.

21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

 

[BobRyan]

]Hebrews 6 does not say "never were saved".. you cannot "fall" if you are not standing.

4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

Those who fell from Grace there were never saved !

1. you can't fall from grace without first being under Grace -- and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come

2. The idea that those under Grace have no salvation is foreign to the Bible so you simply "quote yourself"..

Fine you have free will and you can continue to 'quote you' as the "authority" for your doctrine -- but I prefer the actual Bible.

 

[Van]

Hi Mr. Ryan, since you edited out part of my post and again regurgitated your views which I have addressed, it would be pointless to steadfastly continue in the ministry of truth. OSAS is biblical truth, once God transfers us into the kingdom of His Son, we are sealed in Christ forever.

 

[BobRyan]

Hi Mr. Ryan, since you edited out part of my post and again regurgitated your views which I have addressed, it would be pointless to steadfastly continue in the ministry of truth. OSAS is biblical truth, once God transfers us into the kingdom of His Son, we are sealed in Christ forever.

1. You have free will and are welcome to simply "affirm your preferences" rather than look at the Bible details I have highlighted. Each one can choose that same path if they wish - and "Everyone doing so" would not have allowed the Protestant Reformation to get off the ground in the first place -- as I am sure you and I would both agree.

2. In my previous post I narrowed the "detail" down to a precise contradiction between your statement and the actual Bible details on that very point. It appears you are happy to leave it at that - and I have no objection to it either.

3. You could post "OSAS is bible truth" a 100 times and I could respond "OSAS is doctrinal error according to the Bible" 100 times --- would be pointless.

4. OR I could respond with the same Bible texts showing where it fails the test of scripture again and again. Bringing up those same bible details that you might prefer not to address.

In any case you have free will - and I am not trying to at all change your mind against your will. Neither am I arguing that those who oppose the Bible details I bring up on this topic are not saved.

 

[Yeshua1]

]Hebrews 6 does not say "never were saved".. you cannot "fall" if you are not standing.

4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.



1. you can't fall from grace without first being under Grace -- and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come

2. The idea that those under Grace have no salvation is foreign to the Bible so you simply "quote yourself"..

Fine you have free will and you can continue to 'quote you' as the "authority" for your doctrine -- but I prefer the actual Bible.

Author contrasts those mentioned there with those that he expects and knows has eternal life, the good soil.
Do you hold then once we forfeit eternal life, always stay lost, just one chance at it?

 

[BobRyan]

Author contrasts those mentioned there with those that he expects and knows has eternal life, the good soil.
Do you hold then once we forfeit eternal life, always stay lost, just one chance at it?

Hebrews 6 carefully details the saved state of those who were saved then fell and were nonredeemable -- Romans 11 by contrast details the case of those who though saved ... may fall and yet are still redeemable "His is able to graft them in AGAIN if they do not continue in unbelief"

 

[Yeshua1]

Hebrews 6 carefully details the saved state of those who were saved then fell and were nonredeemable -- Romans 11 by contrast details the case of those who though saved ... may fall and yet are still redeemable "His is able to graft them in AGAIN if they do not continue in unbelief"

Nice try, but both passages describe to us those who were mere professors of faith in Jesus, and not really saved, as in the end, they turned away in unbelief!

 

[BobRyan]

Nice try, but both passages describe to us those who were mere professors of faith in Jesus, and not really saved,

Not true at all.

as in the end, they turned away in unbelief!

In Romans 11 they are simply warned to stay away from unbelief -- they have not had salvation revoked yet.
In Heb 6 - they fell from grace - from full participation in salvation - they had it... they lost it.

 

[utilyan]

Never had it, Never wills.......

We know they get hell.

Hebrews 10

29How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?


This is someone else, The "never had it" we are told, Jesus did not die for them, They were not sanctified by the covenant made by Jesus Christ.

So this is someone Jesus did die for, but they regarded blood of Jesus as trash, They are believers You can't insult grace unless it was rejected being offered.


Nonbelievers, Never had it, Never wills....we already know they get hell. What about these guys who get a MUCH SEVERER PUNISHMENT?




26For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.

AFTER receiving knowledge of the truth. A reprobate has NEVER received the knowledge of the truth.

Who are these believers who received the truth. Who were sanctified by Jesus Christ? Who have a terrifying expectation of Judgment that is a WORSE punishment then a unbeliever?


Plenty folks here would argue that only the regenerated man has the capacity of receiving the knowledge of the truth.

 

[delizzle]

I have numerous threads started by me on this section of the board dealing with the fact that the false doctrine of OSAS does not survive the Bible details.

So here is "yet another"

OSAS does not survive the Bible details
in Matthew 18 where we see "forgiveness revoked"
does not survive the Bible details in Romans 11 where we see 'salvation revoked"
Does not survive the Bible details in John 15 where those 'in Christ" are cut off and burned up.
Does not survive the Bible details in Ezek 18 where we see forgiveness revoked.
Does not surive the Bible details in Ephesians 6 where we see salvation revoked

Does not survive Paul's statement in 1 Cor 9 - "LEST after preaching the Gospel to others I myself should be disqualified from it"

Does not survive Romans 2:13

Does not survive Romans 2:4-9

Does not survive the details of Gal 4 "I fear I have labored over you in vain"

These are not just "so many Bible texts to be ignored" --

Don't forget about James 5:19-20.

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[delizzle]

[/COLOR]

I wanted a short hand summary for the OP so that instead of having to wade through volumes of text - the reader can tell from the OP what the gist of the position is.

More than happy to post details on areas where people have an interest.



Two points in this response of mine

A. There is only ONE Gospel (Gal 1:6-9) and that Gospel was "preached to Abraham" Gal 3:8.
-- so this explains how it is that before the cross - Moses and Elijah stand "with Christ" in glory in Matthew 17... New Testament... pre-cross
Heb 4:2 "The Gospel was preached to us - JUST as it was to THEM also"
Jer 31:31-33 New Covenant - in Old Testament... unchanged in NT Heb 8:6-12

B. Matthew 18 the teaching of Christ is "I forgave you ALL that debt" - shouldn't you after having experienced FULL forgiveness have forgiven your brother?

32 Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34 And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”


If we are Christians then by definition we listen to the teaching of Christ.

Don't forget about Revelation 22:19.

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[SheepWhisperer]

Never had it, Never wills.......

We know they get hell.

Hebrews 10

29How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?


This is someone else, The "never had it" we are told, Jesus did not die for them, They were not sanctified by the covenant made by Jesus Christ.

So this is someone Jesus did die for, but they regarded blood of Jesus as trash, They are believers You can't insult grace unless it was rejected being offered.


Nonbelievers, Never had it, Never wills....we already know they get hell. What about these guys who get a MUCH SEVERER PUNISHMENT?




26For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.

AFTER receiving knowledge of the truth. A reprobate has NEVER received the knowledge of the truth.

Who are these believers who received the truth. Who were sanctified by Jesus Christ? Who have a terrifying expectation of Judgment that is a WORSE punishment then a unbeliever?


Plenty folks here would argue that only the regenerated man has the capacity of receiving the knowledge of the truth.

The Bible clearly and repeatedly teaches that God "chastens His own" and it says He "scourgeth every son He receiveth". If you are "His own" it's a done deal, but God punishes us when we sin or continue in sin. The verses you posted from Hebrews 10 say nothing about eternal damnation, but do warn of "sore punishment" and "fiery indignation" and it is referring to "His people".

23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised 24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: 25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

 

[BobRyan]

Don't forget about James 5:19-20.

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Nice!

 

[BobRyan]

The Bible clearly and repeatedly teaches that God "chastens His own" and it says He "scourgeth every son He receiveth". If you are "His own" it's a done deal, but God punishes us when we sin or continue in sin. The verses you posted from Hebrews 10 say nothing about eternal damnation, but do warn of "sore punishment" and "fiery indignation" and it is referring to "His people".
.

John 1:11 "He came to His OWN and His OWN received Him not"