Featured TWO Raptures of Believers?

I think that we are saying the same thing, as my understanding is that when Jesus returns, all alive will be saved/born again, but still in their normal bodies, not glorified as those who were saved prior to that event, correct?

 

Correct.

Those alive at His Return will enter into the Kingdom in their physical bodies. Unbelievers are destroyed. The Church prior to the Tribulation has already been caught up.


God bless.

 

I will have to come back to this, Mr. Davis (as I am out of time for now), but will again mention that Paul does not teach a "partial Rapture," as both dead and living saints in Christ will be caught up. Secondly, the resurrection of the Tribulation Martyrs, which can only be divided by those who are dead among believers and those who are alive (who enter into the Kingdom physically), is not a partial rapture as you are trying to present, which is a division between the faithful and unfaithful among believers.

Here you say there are "two partial raptures," so at this time, since you have not addressed any of the points addressing your own assertions, I will ask you to address how you can possibly make the Pre-Tribulation Rapture, in which every believer is resurrected (both alive and dead) and caught up...

...a partial rapture?

And I'll try to get to the rest of it tomorrow.


God bless.

 

Taking a quick break so will address this post as I can.

That is a given, but that is irrelevant to the Rapture, for everyone who is a born again believer among those who live, and everyone who has died since the establishment of the New Covenant will all be caught up at the same time. Regardless of how faithful or unfaithful they have been.


1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
King James Version (KJV)

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.


The comforting word Paul relates is "My beloved, don't concern yourself that those who have died will be left out when Christ returns."

Teachings that the Church will go through the Tribulation, and teaching that the unfaithful among believers will be left behind...hold no comfort, lol. The only ones left behind at the Rapture are unbelievers.

And you have absolutely no Scripture to support that. First, there is no destruction directly tied to the Rapture itself. Secondly, this...


Matthew 24:37-39
King James Version (KJV)

37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.


...refers to the Second Coming, not the Rapture.

Third, those who are swept away...are not believers. That is why they are swept away. It is judgment upon them for their wickedness. The only believers in this judgment that we can definitely identify is Noah himself, and it is God's grace that his wife and children are not also swept away.


Continued...

 

Nothing at all in the text to indicate only the faithful meet the Lord in the clouds, it very much is all inclusive of the entire Church.

Partial Rapture is not supported by Scripture.

There is no "second trump" apart from the Second Trumpet Judgment of Revelation.

The Trumpet sounding in Matthew is not said to be the final trump.

The Last Trump here...

1 Corinthians 15:52
King James Version (KJV)

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.


...is probably better understood in the context of this trumpet call:


Exodus 19:10-11
King James Version (KJV)

10 And the Lord said unto Moses, Go unto the people, and sanctify them to day and to morrow, and let them wash their clothes,

11 And be ready against the third day: for the third day the Lord will come down in the sight of all the people upon mount Sinai.


In view is the coming of the Lord unto His people.



Exodus 19:14-20
King James Version (KJV)

14 And Moses went down from the mount unto the people, and sanctified the people; and they washed their clothes.

15 And he said unto the people, Be ready against the third day: come not at your wives.

16 And it came to pass on the third day in the morning, that there were thunders and lightnings, and a thick cloud upon the mount, and the voice of the trumpet exceeding loud; so that all the people that was in the camp trembled.

17 And Moses brought forth the people out of the camp to meet with God; and they stood at the nether part of the mount.

18 And mount Sinai was altogether on a smoke, because the Lord descended upon it in fire: and the smoke thereof ascended as the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mount quaked greatly.

19 And when the voice of the trumpet sounded long, and waxed louder and louder, Moses spake, and God answered him by a voice.

20 And the Lord came down upon mount Sinai, on the top of the mount: and the Lord called Moses up to the top of the mount; and Moses went up.


We have a trumpet call to gather the people of God, the Lord coming down, and Moses going up, lol.

What we can say for certain is that it is not the Last Trumpet Judgment, as many erroneously believe, because that "Last Trump/et" takes place prior to the end of the Tribulation. Somewhere in the last half of the Seven Week Tribulation, and probably about two thirds through the last half.

But you have no Scripture that supports this, Mr. Davis.

And my break is over, so without commenting on the sketchiness of your post, lol, I will be back when I can to continue the response of your post.


God bless.

 

Partial Rapture seems to smack of millennial exclusion, at least to me!

 

It is very similar, with the exception of making it apply to the Rapture and the resurrection of the Tribulation Saints.


God bless.

 

No worries, I read each post three times before it gets to you. Once, initially, then when I break it up for quotes, then when I respond to it.

He is right on both counts.

This is specific to the Return of Christ. Not the Rapture. So you cannot use this as a supportive text.

Also specific to the Return of Christ.

And what I have to ask, Mr. Davis, is why you are again asserting this as a supportive text when it has already been addressed, and you have not responded to what has already been said.

Here is an address of what you are calling supportive:

Those taken are taken, just like those in the flood, and in Sodom...

...in judgment. They are all destroyed, just as unbelievers (not unfaithful Christians) will be destroyed when Christ returns.

This therefore cannot be taken as a supportive text, and the burden on you, if in fact you really want to have a discussion, to address those challenges to your teaching as they are presented.

If you are merely looking for people to agree with you, then it is not Doctrinal Discussion, it is simply you preaching your views.


Continued...

 

The first thing I would suggest to you is that we must understand that Christ teaches within the revelation available to men in that day, and His Ministry was often specific to the Millennial Kingdom.

This verse speaks to Israel, both in the day He taught it, as well as in the Tribulation, when Christ's Return is relevant.

To apply this to the Rapture is not an error that can be supported by Scripture, as the context deals with His Return.

As far as...

...goes, the Lord specifically states "watch," which implies a vigilance in the expectation of His Return. That does apply to the Church, because we are supposed to be able to recognize the signs of the times:


Matthew 16:2-4
King James Version (KJV)

2 He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky is red.

3 And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowering. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times?

4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.


A general principle is, if the Lord rebukes someone for something...you want to do the opposite, lol.

The point here is that the wicked are forced to ask for a sign, when believers are aware the Lord has already given us His Word, so we do not have to be ignorant of what is going to happen. That is why Paul's teaching of the Rapture is supposed to comfort believers. The partial rapture theory is designed only to create doubt and fear.

And it is a false argument.

The Lord defines what being taken means. It means destruction, just as it did in the Flood, and just as it did in Sodom.

Who is taken here...


Matthew 24:39
King James Version (KJV)

39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.


...?

Now look at it back in it's context:


Matthew 24:38-42
King James Version (KJV)

38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

It is those who are unbelieving who are taken...in judgment.

Mr. Govett limits the scope of the use of the word.

First, not sure what kind of companions Mr. Govett considers to be in view here:


John 19:16
King James Version (KJV)

16 Then delivered he him therefore unto them to be crucified. And they took Jesus, and led him away.


Here we see another instance of judgment. This time...that of the Lord being taken.

Secondly, and more importantly to understand, is Scripture usually gives us the definition in the context. As you see above, the taking is specific to the judgments against man in the flood and at Sodom, hence you should be able to see that we cannot impose the Rapture into this text.

Lastly, I still await a response of my address of the "taking" in Matthew 24 and Luke 17.


Continued...

 

And he is blind to the context. I would guess his doctrine demands redefining the context.

Where is this word found in the text, by the way, that I might know its relevancy?

Even if we view John 14:1-3 as a Rapture passage (and many do not, but view it as general...I myself see that it does not conflict with Rapture teachings, though I do not use it as a dogmatic proof text), just because paralambanō is used in this context, doesn't limit its use, as shown in the last post. It does not change the actual teaching of the Lord, that the "taking" is being taken in judgment, which results in the death of the body for those taken.

Mr. Govett is wrong, and just based on what you have stated, I would suggest leaving off looking to Mr. Govett for insight, lol.

That is the only way one can be brought into union with God. That is how it works for us today (in this Age), and that is how it is going to work for folk in both the Tribulation as well as the Millennial Kingdom.

That is something that deserves it's own thread, because it is a much debated issue.

Some think human government is "the restrainer" in 2 Thessalonians 2, but, I personally take the view that in view is simply the same One Who has always restrained evil, and that is the Holy Spirit. A common mistake is to confuse being "taken out of the way" with "taken out of the world." Some try to make this a Rapture passage by such syllogistic conclusion based on error:


2 Thessalonians 2:6-7
King James Version (KJV)

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.


Now to throw out something to think about that might take a different train (of thought), it could be possible that it refers to the man of sin being taken out of the way, meaning, the Restrainer will continue to restrain evil until the Antichrist is taken out of the way. The focus is that Antichrist will not come until the appointed time, and that his coming (Antichrist's) will not mean that evil will have no restraint at that time.

That is my own view. I have never given the thought to Antichrist being the subject, that is something that just occurred to me, and at first glance I don't give it much credence, but, I will give it some thought.

I'll get to the rest of your post when I can.


God bless

 

The problem is that by what basis does God judge just who qualified for the rapture under aprtial theory. for the scriptures plainly state that either were are now in Christ or not at all, saved or lost, not in between state?
Jesus is returning to call out all who have the Holy Spirit them....

 

Why specluate on what is false? Why not address what is false with what is inarguable, shown from Scripture?

Paul is clear...the entire Church is caught up in the Rapture he teaches.

Correct, but we must make that event distinct from the Second Coming.

We have enough in the New Testament to present a timeline of events, given us by God (that we need not seek after a sign as unbelievers do), that we might know how things will unfold. And when we place those events in their proper structure, and do not change the Prophecy of Revelation to something Prophecy has never been (analogous, or simply figurative terminology for day to day temporal activity/events), we can present a thorough timeline of events which also shows us the impossibility of the Rapture being partial, or at the end of the Tribulation.


God bless.

 

There is that interesting part in Daniel though where God adds extra 45 days unto the end scenerio, so could there not be the rapture/Second Coming as being the same event?

 

There are either saved or lost, period, and all saved by Jesus go up to meet Him, and then the ones not faithful get to be embarrassed at His Bhema seat Judgement with them!

 

What qualifies as a Christian passing the line from going up or not? What sin, how long, how much?