I think that we are saying the same thing, as my understanding is that when Jesus returns, all alive will be saved/born again, but still in their normal bodies, not glorified as those who were saved prior to that event, correct?
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TWO Raptures of Believers?
- Thread starter Mr. Davis
- Start date
I think that we are saying the same thing, as my understanding is that when Jesus returns, all alive will be saved/born again, but still in their normal bodies, not glorified as those who were saved prior to that event, correct?
Correct.
Those alive at His Return will enter into the Kingdom in their physical bodies. Unbelievers are destroyed. The Church prior to the Tribulation has already been caught up.
God bless.
As has been mentioned in my previous posts there are two partial raptures: one prior to the beginning of the Tribulation, and, the second, with the close of the Tribulation.
When the Lord comes to the partial rapture(s), the unfaithful will be walking in opposition to the Spirit (Gal 5). They, while saved, will be acting like those swept away in Noah’s time (Matt 24:37-39). The faithful will meet the Lord in the clouds (Compare 1 Thess 4:16-17 with Matt 24:30-31; 1 Cor 15:52). The Corinthians passage is associated with the one in Matthew because they both contain the second, or final “trump.”
With the faithful gone, the unfaithful pass through the Tribulation.
[The above is rather sketchy. The following will refine the thesis and give supporting scripture]
This is a brief, preliminary introduction to my thesis. I present it incrementally and provide supporting scripture. One poster has already made some comments that are addressed here. Before commenting on this post please read it thoroughly (and, ideally, more than once).
I want to stress that my thesis differs greatly from those advancing ‘traditional’ partial rapture theory. Proponents say that believers must be watchful of end-time events, or find themselves unfaithful and experience the tribulation. I agree with the late Dr. Walvoord that this supposition is wrong. (It should be noted that he rejected the idea of a partial rapture. His objections can be found elsewhere.)
The passages I consider have dual fulfilments (the Church and Israel).
Matthew 24:37-39:
“But as the days of [Noah] were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that [Noah] entered the ark. And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the son of man be.
Matthew 24:40-41
“Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.”
Matthew 24:42,44:
“Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.”
“Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour ye think not the Son of man cometh.”
It is not being watchful or ready that counts. It is being faithful. A believer is faithful in his life to the Lord. He is a friend of the Lord.
‘ Matthew 24:41 “Then shall two men be in the field; one is taken, and one is left.” It is argued that the one taken is the one translated. Robert Govett states that the Greek word for “take” (paralambano) means “to take as a companion”—”ordinarily the result of friendship.” In this he finds a contrast to the Greek word for “took away” (eren), describing the judgment on unbelievers in Noah’s day (Matt 24:39). He offers confirmation in that paralambano is used in John 14:3 of the rapture, “will receive you unto myself.” The one left, according to Govett, is left to go through the tribulation.’
During the Tribulation, the Holy Spirit indwells believers. But, He no longer restrains human governments. In this sense, He is taken out of the way. ( 2 Thess 2:4, 6-7).
The parable of the ten virgins. Matthew 25. The “lamps” and the “vessels” contain oil. This oil is a symbol of the Holy Spirit. The wise (the faithful) are filled with the Spirit (controlled by the Spirit). The unwise (the unfaithful) were, at one time filled, but later did not get refilled. (They went to buy oil, but the parable does not directly say that they obtained any). The Lord would say to the unwise virgins, “I know you not.” They were saved but unfaithful. Those in Matthew 7:21-23 were mere professors and not saved; likewise, for the goats in the parable of the sheep and the goats. The upshot of the parable of the ten virgins is that the faithful and the Lord were married.
The marriage supper of the Lamb takes place with all the raptured (the faithful) in heaven (Rev 19:7-9). Then they and the Lord return to earth. (1 Thess 3:13)
Salvation is a free gift. Rewards are earned. The judgment seat of Christ confirms rewards for the faithful and confirms the preservation of the unfaithful. (1 Cor 5:10; 1 Cor 3.) This judgment takes place at the beginning of the Kingdom on earth. (Matt 16:27).
Revelation 12 has dual fulfilments in the woman. First, as the Church. Then as Israel. (This second fulfillment is not discussed here.)
The “woman” as the Church.
The “man child” is the faithful Lord Jesus Christ (symbolizing of the faithful of the Church).
And, these are raptured (vs. 5). Later, the Beast is pictured as warring against “the rest of her seed” (vs 17). They keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. But they are persecuted by the Beast. They travel with the woman. They are saved, and they will never receive the mark of the Beast. They will exit the Tribulation and enter the Kingdom. Why?
Before the Tribulation the faithful will be raptured. The unfaithful will go through it. Those that are saved during the Tribulation that are faithful will be raptured at it’s closing. Those that are unfaithful will exit the Tribulation on earth.
Those that are on the earth during the Tribulation are faithful or unfaithful. Being on the earth, a believer is relatively less faithful than those already raptured. The raptured are perfect in their faithfulness. So, the rest of the Woman’s seed, being on the earth, are relatively less faithful than the raptured faithful. “Relatively less” is enough for them to pass through the Tribulation into the Kingdom.
This interpretation of Revelation 12 is based on that of G.H. Lang. Lang’s work is definitive. It is the crux of the whole book of Revelation. In his own words, “This c. 12 is a crux interpretum for the whole Revelation and the Times of the End, especially in relation to the people of God to be then living…” This quote by Lang, along with Robert Govett’s explanation of his partial rapture, at the beginning of this thesis, are included in one of Walvoord’s works.
The partial raptures of Govett and Lang are convincing evidence for the validity of the concept. Other examples of valid partial raptures can be found by the dedicated Bible student through searching the Bible manually or electronically. There are probably other resources as well.
To Summarize:
There are unfaithful believers that will enter the Tribulation and proceed through it.
The saved during the Tribulation that are faithful will be translated at its closing. The saved that are unfaithful will proceed through it.
All the faithful will be translated. Some before the Tribulation (the first trump--1 Thess 4:16). Some at its closing (the last trump--Matt 24:31; 1 Cor 15:52).
The unfaithful are flesh and blood. They can’t enter the Kingdom as they are (1 Cor 15:50). They must be transformed at the last trump (1 Cor 15:51-53). This transformation does not change their history from unfaithful to faithful. So, their transformation is not in the clouds, but on the earth.
The faithful are the Bride of Christ. This is how they participate in the Kingdom of God. The unfaithful, now transformed fully into the image of Christ, participate in the earthly kingdom, by following the command to our first parents,“be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.” (Gen 1:28)
So, paradise will be restored, not on a small region of the earth, but worldwide.
God’s eternal purpose, including the saved, both faithful and unfaithful, has been accomplished (Rom 8:28).
When the Lord comes to the partial rapture(s), the unfaithful will be walking in opposition to the Spirit (Gal 5). They, while saved, will be acting like those swept away in Noah’s time (Matt 24:37-39). The faithful will meet the Lord in the clouds (Compare 1 Thess 4:16-17 with Matt 24:30-31; 1 Cor 15:52). The Corinthians passage is associated with the one in Matthew because they both contain the second, or final “trump.”
With the faithful gone, the unfaithful pass through the Tribulation.
[The above is rather sketchy. The following will refine the thesis and give supporting scripture]
This is a brief, preliminary introduction to my thesis. I present it incrementally and provide supporting scripture. One poster has already made some comments that are addressed here. Before commenting on this post please read it thoroughly (and, ideally, more than once).
I want to stress that my thesis differs greatly from those advancing ‘traditional’ partial rapture theory. Proponents say that believers must be watchful of end-time events, or find themselves unfaithful and experience the tribulation. I agree with the late Dr. Walvoord that this supposition is wrong. (It should be noted that he rejected the idea of a partial rapture. His objections can be found elsewhere.)
The passages I consider have dual fulfilments (the Church and Israel).
Matthew 24:37-39:
“But as the days of [Noah] were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that [Noah] entered the ark. And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the son of man be.
Matthew 24:40-41
“Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.”
Matthew 24:42,44:
“Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.”
“Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour ye think not the Son of man cometh.”
It is not being watchful or ready that counts. It is being faithful. A believer is faithful in his life to the Lord. He is a friend of the Lord.
‘ Matthew 24:41 “Then shall two men be in the field; one is taken, and one is left.” It is argued that the one taken is the one translated. Robert Govett states that the Greek word for “take” (paralambano) means “to take as a companion”—”ordinarily the result of friendship.” In this he finds a contrast to the Greek word for “took away” (eren), describing the judgment on unbelievers in Noah’s day (Matt 24:39). He offers confirmation in that paralambano is used in John 14:3 of the rapture, “will receive you unto myself.” The one left, according to Govett, is left to go through the tribulation.’
During the Tribulation, the Holy Spirit indwells believers. But, He no longer restrains human governments. In this sense, He is taken out of the way. ( 2 Thess 2:4, 6-7).
The parable of the ten virgins. Matthew 25. The “lamps” and the “vessels” contain oil. This oil is a symbol of the Holy Spirit. The wise (the faithful) are filled with the Spirit (controlled by the Spirit). The unwise (the unfaithful) were, at one time filled, but later did not get refilled. (They went to buy oil, but the parable does not directly say that they obtained any). The Lord would say to the unwise virgins, “I know you not.” They were saved but unfaithful. Those in Matthew 7:21-23 were mere professors and not saved; likewise, for the goats in the parable of the sheep and the goats. The upshot of the parable of the ten virgins is that the faithful and the Lord were married.
The marriage supper of the Lamb takes place with all the raptured (the faithful) in heaven (Rev 19:7-9). Then they and the Lord return to earth. (1 Thess 3:13)
Salvation is a free gift. Rewards are earned. The judgment seat of Christ confirms rewards for the faithful and confirms the preservation of the unfaithful. (1 Cor 5:10; 1 Cor 3.) This judgment takes place at the beginning of the Kingdom on earth. (Matt 16:27).
Revelation 12 has dual fulfilments in the woman. First, as the Church. Then as Israel. (This second fulfillment is not discussed here.)
The “woman” as the Church.
The “man child” is the faithful Lord Jesus Christ (symbolizing of the faithful of the Church).
And, these are raptured (vs. 5). Later, the Beast is pictured as warring against “the rest of her seed” (vs 17). They keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. But they are persecuted by the Beast. They travel with the woman. They are saved, and they will never receive the mark of the Beast. They will exit the Tribulation and enter the Kingdom. Why?
Before the Tribulation the faithful will be raptured. The unfaithful will go through it. Those that are saved during the Tribulation that are faithful will be raptured at it’s closing. Those that are unfaithful will exit the Tribulation on earth.
Those that are on the earth during the Tribulation are faithful or unfaithful. Being on the earth, a believer is relatively less faithful than those already raptured. The raptured are perfect in their faithfulness. So, the rest of the Woman’s seed, being on the earth, are relatively less faithful than the raptured faithful. “Relatively less” is enough for them to pass through the Tribulation into the Kingdom.
This interpretation of Revelation 12 is based on that of G.H. Lang. Lang’s work is definitive. It is the crux of the whole book of Revelation. In his own words, “This c. 12 is a crux interpretum for the whole Revelation and the Times of the End, especially in relation to the people of God to be then living…” This quote by Lang, along with Robert Govett’s explanation of his partial rapture, at the beginning of this thesis, are included in one of Walvoord’s works.
The partial raptures of Govett and Lang are convincing evidence for the validity of the concept. Other examples of valid partial raptures can be found by the dedicated Bible student through searching the Bible manually or electronically. There are probably other resources as well.
To Summarize:
There are unfaithful believers that will enter the Tribulation and proceed through it.
The saved during the Tribulation that are faithful will be translated at its closing. The saved that are unfaithful will proceed through it.
All the faithful will be translated. Some before the Tribulation (the first trump--1 Thess 4:16). Some at its closing (the last trump--Matt 24:31; 1 Cor 15:52).
The unfaithful are flesh and blood. They can’t enter the Kingdom as they are (1 Cor 15:50). They must be transformed at the last trump (1 Cor 15:51-53). This transformation does not change their history from unfaithful to faithful. So, their transformation is not in the clouds, but on the earth.
The faithful are the Bride of Christ. This is how they participate in the Kingdom of God. The unfaithful, now transformed fully into the image of Christ, participate in the earthly kingdom, by following the command to our first parents,“be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.” (Gen 1:28)
So, paradise will be restored, not on a small region of the earth, but worldwide.
God’s eternal purpose, including the saved, both faithful and unfaithful, has been accomplished (Rom 8:28).
As has been mentioned in my previous posts there are two partial raptures: one prior to the beginning of the Tribulation, and, the second, with the close of the Tribulation.
I will have to come back to this, Mr. Davis (as I am out of time for now), but will again mention that Paul does not teach a "partial Rapture," as both dead and living saints in Christ will be caught up. Secondly, the resurrection of the Tribulation Martyrs, which can only be divided by those who are dead among believers and those who are alive (who enter into the Kingdom physically), is not a partial rapture as you are trying to present, which is a division between the faithful and unfaithful among believers.
Here you say there are "two partial raptures," so at this time, since you have not addressed any of the points addressing your own assertions, I will ask you to address how you can possibly make the Pre-Tribulation Rapture, in which every believer is resurrected (both alive and dead) and caught up...
...a partial rapture?
And I'll try to get to the rest of it tomorrow.
God bless.
Taking a quick break so will address this post as I can.
That is a given, but that is irrelevant to the Rapture, for everyone who is a born again believer among those who live, and everyone who has died since the establishment of the New Covenant will all be caught up at the same time. Regardless of how faithful or unfaithful they have been.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
King James Version (KJV)
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
The comforting word Paul relates is "My beloved, don't concern yourself that those who have died will be left out when Christ returns."
Teachings that the Church will go through the Tribulation, and teaching that the unfaithful among believers will be left behind...hold no comfort, lol. The only ones left behind at the Rapture are unbelievers.
And you have absolutely no Scripture to support that. First, there is no destruction directly tied to the Rapture itself. Secondly, this...
Matthew 24:37-39
King James Version (KJV)
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
...refers to the Second Coming, not the Rapture.
Third, those who are swept away...are not believers. That is why they are swept away. It is judgment upon them for their wickedness. The only believers in this judgment that we can definitely identify is Noah himself, and it is God's grace that his wife and children are not also swept away.
Continued...
When the Lord comes to the partial rapture(s), the unfaithful will be walking in opposition to the Spirit (Gal 5).
That is a given, but that is irrelevant to the Rapture, for everyone who is a born again believer among those who live, and everyone who has died since the establishment of the New Covenant will all be caught up at the same time. Regardless of how faithful or unfaithful they have been.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
King James Version (KJV)
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
The comforting word Paul relates is "My beloved, don't concern yourself that those who have died will be left out when Christ returns."
Teachings that the Church will go through the Tribulation, and teaching that the unfaithful among believers will be left behind...hold no comfort, lol. The only ones left behind at the Rapture are unbelievers.
They, while saved, will be acting like those swept away in Noah’s time (Matt 24:37-39).
And you have absolutely no Scripture to support that. First, there is no destruction directly tied to the Rapture itself. Secondly, this...
Matthew 24:37-39
King James Version (KJV)
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
...refers to the Second Coming, not the Rapture.
Third, those who are swept away...are not believers. That is why they are swept away. It is judgment upon them for their wickedness. The only believers in this judgment that we can definitely identify is Noah himself, and it is God's grace that his wife and children are not also swept away.
Continued...
The faithful will meet the Lord in the clouds (Compare 1 Thess 4:16-17 with Matt 24:30-31; 1 Cor 15:52).
Nothing at all in the text to indicate only the faithful meet the Lord in the clouds, it very much is all inclusive of the entire Church.
Partial Rapture is not supported by Scripture.
The Corinthians passage is associated with the one in Matthew because they both contain the second, or final “trump.”
There is no "second trump" apart from the Second Trumpet Judgment of Revelation.
The Trumpet sounding in Matthew is not said to be the final trump.
The Last Trump here...
1 Corinthians 15:52
King James Version (KJV)
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
...is probably better understood in the context of this trumpet call:
Exodus 19:10-11
King James Version (KJV)
10 And the Lord said unto Moses, Go unto the people, and sanctify them to day and to morrow, and let them wash their clothes,
11 And be ready against the third day: for the third day the Lord will come down in the sight of all the people upon mount Sinai.
In view is the coming of the Lord unto His people.
Exodus 19:14-20
King James Version (KJV)
14 And Moses went down from the mount unto the people, and sanctified the people; and they washed their clothes.
15 And he said unto the people, Be ready against the third day: come not at your wives.
16 And it came to pass on the third day in the morning, that there were thunders and lightnings, and a thick cloud upon the mount, and the voice of the trumpet exceeding loud; so that all the people that was in the camp trembled.
17 And Moses brought forth the people out of the camp to meet with God; and they stood at the nether part of the mount.
18 And mount Sinai was altogether on a smoke, because the Lord descended upon it in fire: and the smoke thereof ascended as the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mount quaked greatly.
19 And when the voice of the trumpet sounded long, and waxed louder and louder, Moses spake, and God answered him by a voice.
20 And the Lord came down upon mount Sinai, on the top of the mount: and the Lord called Moses up to the top of the mount; and Moses went up.
We have a trumpet call to gather the people of God, the Lord coming down, and Moses going up, lol.
What we can say for certain is that it is not the Last Trumpet Judgment, as many erroneously believe, because that "Last Trump/et" takes place prior to the end of the Tribulation. Somewhere in the last half of the Seven Week Tribulation, and probably about two thirds through the last half.
With the faithful gone, the unfaithful pass through the Tribulation.
But you have no Scripture that supports this, Mr. Davis.
[The above is rather sketchy. The following will refine the thesis and give supporting scripture]
And my break is over, so without commenting on the sketchiness of your post, lol, I will be back when I can to continue the response of your post.
God bless.
Partial Rapture seems to smack of millennial exclusion, at least to me!Nothing at all in the text to indicate only the faithful meet the Lord in the clouds, it very much is all inclusive of the entire Church.
Partial Rapture is not supported by Scripture.
There is no "second trump" apart from the Second Trumpet Judgment of Revelation.
The Trumpet sounding in Matthew is not said to be the final trump.
The Last Trump here...
1 Corinthians 15:52
King James Version (KJV)
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
...is probably better understood in the context of this trumpet call:
Exodus 19:10-11
King James Version (KJV)
10 And the Lord said unto Moses, Go unto the people, and sanctify them to day and to morrow, and let them wash their clothes,
11 And be ready against the third day: for the third day the Lord will come down in the sight of all the people upon mount Sinai.
In view is the coming of the Lord unto His people.
Exodus 19:14-20
King James Version (KJV)
14 And Moses went down from the mount unto the people, and sanctified the people; and they washed their clothes.
15 And he said unto the people, Be ready against the third day: come not at your wives.
16 And it came to pass on the third day in the morning, that there were thunders and lightnings, and a thick cloud upon the mount, and the voice of the trumpet exceeding loud; so that all the people that was in the camp trembled.
17 And Moses brought forth the people out of the camp to meet with God; and they stood at the nether part of the mount.
18 And mount Sinai was altogether on a smoke, because the Lord descended upon it in fire: and the smoke thereof ascended as the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mount quaked greatly.
19 And when the voice of the trumpet sounded long, and waxed louder and louder, Moses spake, and God answered him by a voice.
20 And the Lord came down upon mount Sinai, on the top of the mount: and the Lord called Moses up to the top of the mount; and Moses went up.
We have a trumpet call to gather the people of God, the Lord coming down, and Moses going up, lol.
What we can say for certain is that it is not the Last Trumpet Judgment, as many erroneously believe, because that "Last Trump/et" takes place prior to the end of the Tribulation. Somewhere in the last half of the Seven Week Tribulation, and probably about two thirds through the last half.
But you have no Scripture that supports this, Mr. Davis.
And my break is over, so without commenting on the sketchiness of your post, lol, I will be back when I can to continue the response of your post.
God bless.
Partial Rapture seems to smack of millennial exclusion, at least to me!
It is very similar, with the exception of making it apply to the Rapture and the resurrection of the Tribulation Saints.
God bless.
This is a brief, preliminary introduction to my thesis. I present it incrementally and provide supporting scripture. One poster has already made some comments that are addressed here. Before commenting on this post please read it thoroughly (and, ideally, more than once).
No worries, I read each post three times before it gets to you. Once, initially, then when I break it up for quotes, then when I respond to it.
I want to stress that my thesis differs greatly from those advancing ‘traditional’ partial rapture theory. Proponents say that believers must be watchful of end-time events, or find themselves unfaithful and experience the tribulation. I agree with the late Dr. Walvoord that this supposition is wrong. (It should be noted that he rejected the idea of a partial rapture. His objections can be found elsewhere.)
He is right on both counts.
The passages I consider have dual fulfilments (the Church and Israel).
Matthew 24:37-39:
“But as the days of [Noah] were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that [Noah] entered the ark. And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the son of man be.
This is specific to the Return of Christ. Not the Rapture. So you cannot use this as a supportive text.
Matthew 24:40-41
“Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.”
Also specific to the Return of Christ.
And what I have to ask, Mr. Davis, is why you are again asserting this as a supportive text when it has already been addressed, and you have not responded to what has already been said.
Here is an address of what you are calling supportive:
Luke 17:30-37
King James Version (KJV)
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.
32 Remember Lot's wife.
33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.
Just as in the days of Noah and Lot (Luke 17:26-29) unbelievers suffered physical death, and the destruction, respectively, was complete. The Disciples ask, "Where are they taken?" and Matthew makes it clear that it is their deaths in view:
Matthew 24:27-28
King James Version (KJV)
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
Again, the point is that all unbelievers are physically destroyed, and all believers who physically live through the Tribulation enter, physically alive, that Kingdom promised by God in Prophecy.
Those taken are taken, just like those in the flood, and in Sodom...
...in judgment. They are all destroyed, just as unbelievers (not unfaithful Christians) will be destroyed when Christ returns.
This therefore cannot be taken as a supportive text, and the burden on you, if in fact you really want to have a discussion, to address those challenges to your teaching as they are presented.
If you are merely looking for people to agree with you, then it is not Doctrinal Discussion, it is simply you preaching your views.
Continued...
Matthew 24:42,44:
“Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.”
“Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour ye think not the Son of man cometh.”
It is not being watchful or ready that counts. It is being faithful. A believer is faithful in his life to the Lord. He is a friend of the Lord.
The first thing I would suggest to you is that we must understand that Christ teaches within the revelation available to men in that day, and His Ministry was often specific to the Millennial Kingdom.
This verse speaks to Israel, both in the day He taught it, as well as in the Tribulation, when Christ's Return is relevant.
To apply this to the Rapture is not an error that can be supported by Scripture, as the context deals with His Return.
As far as...
It is not being watchful or ready that counts. It is being faithful. A believer is faithful in his life to the Lord. He is a friend of the Lord.
...goes, the Lord specifically states "watch," which implies a vigilance in the expectation of His Return. That does apply to the Church, because we are supposed to be able to recognize the signs of the times:
Matthew 16:2-4
King James Version (KJV)
2 He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky is red.
3 And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowering. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times?
4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.
A general principle is, if the Lord rebukes someone for something...you want to do the opposite, lol.
The point here is that the wicked are forced to ask for a sign, when believers are aware the Lord has already given us His Word, so we do not have to be ignorant of what is going to happen. That is why Paul's teaching of the Rapture is supposed to comfort believers. The partial rapture theory is designed only to create doubt and fear.
‘ Matthew 24:41 “Then shall two men be in the field; one is taken, and one is left.” It is argued that the one taken is the one translated.
And it is a false argument.
The Lord defines what being taken means. It means destruction, just as it did in the Flood, and just as it did in Sodom.
Robert Govett states that the Greek word for “take” (paralambano) means “to take as a companion”—”ordinarily the result of friendship.”
Who is taken here...
Matthew 24:39
King James Version (KJV)
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
...?
Now look at it back in it's context:
Matthew 24:38-42
King James Version (KJV)
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
It is those who are unbelieving who are taken...in judgment.
Robert Govett states that the Greek word for “take” (paralambano) means “to take as a companion”—”ordinarily the result of friendship.”
Mr. Govett limits the scope of the use of the word.
First, not sure what kind of companions Mr. Govett considers to be in view here:
John 19:16
King James Version (KJV)
16 Then delivered he him therefore unto them to be crucified. And they took Jesus, and led him away.
Here we see another instance of judgment. This time...that of the Lord being taken.
Secondly, and more importantly to understand, is Scripture usually gives us the definition in the context. As you see above, the taking is specific to the judgments against man in the flood and at Sodom, hence you should be able to see that we cannot impose the Rapture into this text.
Lastly, I still await a response of my address of the "taking" in Matthew 24 and Luke 17.
Continued...
In this he finds a contrast to the Greek word for “took away” (eren), describing the judgment on unbelievers in Noah’s day (Matt 24:39)
And he is blind to the context. I would guess his doctrine demands redefining the context.
Where is this word found in the text, by the way, that I might know its relevancy?
He offers confirmation in that paralambano is used in John 14:3 of the rapture, “will receive you unto myself.”
Even if we view John 14:1-3 as a Rapture passage (and many do not, but view it as general...I myself see that it does not conflict with Rapture teachings, though I do not use it as a dogmatic proof text), just because paralambanō is used in this context, doesn't limit its use, as shown in the last post. It does not change the actual teaching of the Lord, that the "taking" is being taken in judgment, which results in the death of the body for those taken.
The one left, according to Govett, is left to go through the tribulation.’
Mr. Govett is wrong, and just based on what you have stated, I would suggest leaving off looking to Mr. Govett for insight, lol.
During the Tribulation, the Holy Spirit indwells believers.
That is the only way one can be brought into union with God. That is how it works for us today (in this Age), and that is how it is going to work for folk in both the Tribulation as well as the Millennial Kingdom.
But, He no longer restrains human governments.
That is something that deserves it's own thread, because it is a much debated issue.
Some think human government is "the restrainer" in 2 Thessalonians 2, but, I personally take the view that in view is simply the same One Who has always restrained evil, and that is the Holy Spirit. A common mistake is to confuse being "taken out of the way" with "taken out of the world." Some try to make this a Rapture passage by such syllogistic conclusion based on error:
2 Thessalonians 2:6-7
King James Version (KJV)
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
Now to throw out something to think about that might take a different train (of thought), it could be possible that it refers to the man of sin being taken out of the way, meaning, the Restrainer will continue to restrain evil until the Antichrist is taken out of the way. The focus is that Antichrist will not come until the appointed time, and that his coming (Antichrist's) will not mean that evil will have no restraint at that time.
He is taken out of the way. ( 2 Thess 2:4, 6-7).
That is my own view. I have never given the thought to Antichrist being the subject, that is something that just occurred to me, and at first glance I don't give it much credence, but, I will give it some thought.
I'll get to the rest of your post when I can.
God bless
The problem is that by what basis does God judge just who qualified for the rapture under aprtial theory. for the scriptures plainly state that either were are now in Christ or not at all, saved or lost, not in between state?It is very similar, with the exception of making it apply to the Rapture and the resurrection of the Tribulation Saints.
God bless.
Jesus is returning to call out all who have the Holy Spirit them....
The problem is that by what basis does God judge just who qualified for the rapture under aprtial theory. for the scriptures plainly state that either were are now in Christ or not at all, saved or lost, not in between state?
Why specluate on what is false? Why not address what is false with what is inarguable, shown from Scripture?
Paul is clear...the entire Church is caught up in the Rapture he teaches.
Jesus is returning to call out all who have the Holy Spirit them....
Correct, but we must make that event distinct from the Second Coming.
We have enough in the New Testament to present a timeline of events, given us by God (that we need not seek after a sign as unbelievers do), that we might know how things will unfold. And when we place those events in their proper structure, and do not change the Prophecy of Revelation to something Prophecy has never been (analogous, or simply figurative terminology for day to day temporal activity/events), we can present a thorough timeline of events which also shows us the impossibility of the Rapture being partial, or at the end of the Tribulation.
God bless.
There is that interesting part in Daniel though where God adds extra 45 days unto the end scenerio, so could there not be the rapture/Second Coming as being the same event?Why specluate on what is false? Why not address what is false with what is inarguable, shown from Scripture?
Paul is clear...the entire Church is caught up in the Rapture he teaches.
Correct, but we must make that event distinct from the Second Coming.
We have enough in the New Testament to present a timeline of events, given us by God (that we need not seek after a sign as unbelievers do), that we might know how things will unfold. And when we place those events in their proper structure, and do not change the Prophecy of Revelation to something Prophecy has never been (analogous, or simply figurative terminology for day to day temporal activity/events), we can present a thorough timeline of events which also shows us the impossibility of the Rapture being partial, or at the end of the Tribulation.
God bless.
Paul does not teach a "partial Rapture," as both dead and living saints in Christ will be caught up.
@I will try to clarify based on my last post. Unfortunately, it was not precise in parts, was disorganized,
very repetitive, and too long. But it was just a first attempt!
You are quite right. Paul in himself does not teach a partial rapture. It is when he is combined with Matthew
and John that the first partial rapture becomes clear. Matthew says one will be taken. Covett says he is a friend of the Lord. Jesus called His faithful ones at the Lord's Supper friends. He also said you are my friends if you obey my commands. (John)
Covett explains from the Greek that this one is a friend of Christ and a companion with him in my first partial
rapture. Covett uses the Greek in John 14 to show that this one has indeed been raptured because he is with the Lord where He prepared a place for him.
There are 3 classes of believers. The faithful, the unfaithful, and the relatively unfaithful. The last category is found later, in my interpretation of Rev 12. Since the faithful one above is raptured, that leaves the unfaithful one behind.
Why is the unfaithful one not raptured? He is saved. But, like the ones in the parable of the 10 virgins who were unwise, he had no "oil" when the Lord came. As will be explained in more detail later, having no oil meant he was not holy. In Hebrews it says that without holiness no one will see the Lord. This is experiential holiness. Once he exits the Tribulation, he will be transformed and made fit to see the Lord.
I believe I also mentioned in my last post that the faithful dead in Christ would also be raptured (and receive new bodies). If I didn't, please consider this a correction.
@
Secondly, the resurrection of the Tribulation Martyrs, which can only be divided by those who are dead among believers and those who are alive (who enter into the Kingdom physically), is not a partial rapture as you are trying to present, which is a division between the faithful and unfaithful among believers.
@ The Tribulation Martyrs are the faithful dead of the Tribulation. These faithful are raptured at the closing of the Tribulation. (Combining Matthew 24 and 1 Corinthians 15, where the second, and final trump, are mentioned.) There will be believers born during the Tribulation. There will be the faithful and unfaithful (Rev 14). The faithful will be raptured at the closing of the Tribulation (Matthew 24). The unfaithful will proceed through the Tribulation.
I would like to reply to each of your posts in sequence. This was the first one. Before you do any more posting please let me catch up!
@I will try to clarify based on my last post. Unfortunately, it was not precise in parts, was disorganized,
very repetitive, and too long. But it was just a first attempt!
You are quite right. Paul in himself does not teach a partial rapture. It is when he is combined with Matthew
and John that the first partial rapture becomes clear. Matthew says one will be taken. Covett says he is a friend of the Lord. Jesus called His faithful ones at the Lord's Supper friends. He also said you are my friends if you obey my commands. (John)
Covett explains from the Greek that this one is a friend of Christ and a companion with him in my first partial
rapture. Covett uses the Greek in John 14 to show that this one has indeed been raptured because he is with the Lord where He prepared a place for him.
There are 3 classes of believers. The faithful, the unfaithful, and the relatively unfaithful. The last category is found later, in my interpretation of Rev 12. Since the faithful one above is raptured, that leaves the unfaithful one behind.
Why is the unfaithful one not raptured? He is saved. But, like the ones in the parable of the 10 virgins who were unwise, he had no "oil" when the Lord came. As will be explained in more detail later, having no oil meant he was not holy. In Hebrews it says that without holiness no one will see the Lord. This is experiential holiness. Once he exits the Tribulation, he will be transformed and made fit to see the Lord.
I believe I also mentioned in my last post that the faithful dead in Christ would also be raptured (and receive new bodies). If I didn't, please consider this a correction.
@
Secondly, the resurrection of the Tribulation Martyrs, which can only be divided by those who are dead among believers and those who are alive (who enter into the Kingdom physically), is not a partial rapture as you are trying to present, which is a division between the faithful and unfaithful among believers.
@ The Tribulation Martyrs are the faithful dead of the Tribulation. These faithful are raptured at the closing of the Tribulation. (Combining Matthew 24 and 1 Corinthians 15, where the second, and final trump, are mentioned.) There will be believers born during the Tribulation. There will be the faithful and unfaithful (Rev 14). The faithful will be raptured at the closing of the Tribulation (Matthew 24). The unfaithful will proceed through the Tribulation.
I would like to reply to each of your posts in sequence. This was the first one. Before you do any more posting please let me catch up!
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There are either saved or lost, period, and all saved by Jesus go up to meet Him, and then the ones not faithful get to be embarrassed at His Bhema seat Judgement with them!Paul does not teach a "partial Rapture," as both dead and living saints in Christ will be caught up.
@I will try to clarify based on my last post. Unfortunately, it was not precise in parts, was disorganized,
very repetitive, and too long. But it was just a first attempt!
You are quite right. Paul in himself does not teach a partial rapture. It is when he is combined with Matthew
and John that the first partial rapture becomes clear. Matthew says one will be taken. Covett says he is a friend of the Lord. Jesus called His faithful ones at the Lord's Supper friends. He also said you are my friends if you obey my commands. (John)
Covett explains from the Greek that this one is a friend of Christ and a companion with him in my first partial
rapture. Covett uses the Greek in John 14 to show that this one has indeed been raptured because he is with the Lord where He prepared a place for him.
There are 3 classes of believers. The faithful, the unfaithful, and the relatively unfaithful. The last category is found later, in my interpretation of Rev 12. Since the faithful one above is raptured, that leaves the unfaithful one behind.
Why is the unfaithful one not raptured? He is saved. But, like the ones in the parable of the 10 virgins who were unwise, he had no "oil" when the Lord came. As will be explained in more detail later, having no oil meant he was not holy. In Hebrews it says that without holiness no one will see the Lord. This is experiential holiness. Once he exits the Tribulation, he will be transformed and made fit to see the Lord.
I believe I also mentioned in my last post that the faithful dead in Christ would also be raptured (and receive new bodies). If I didn't, please consider this a correction.
@
Secondly, the resurrection of the Tribulation Martyrs, which can only be divided by those who are dead among believers and those who are alive (who enter into the Kingdom physically), is not a partial rapture as you are trying to present, which is a division between the faithful and unfaithful among believers.
@ The Tribulation Martyrs are the faithful dead of the Tribulation. These faithful are raptured at the closing of the Tribulation. (Combining Matthew 24 and 1 Corinthians 15, where the second, and final trump, are mentioned.) There will be believers born during the Tribulation. There will be the faithful and unfaithful (Rev 14). The faithful will be raptured at the closing of the Tribulation (Matthew 24). The unfaithful will proceed through the Tribulation.
I would like to reply to each of your posts in sequence. This was the first one. Before you do any more posting please let me catch up!
Part of your (second?) reply to me was:
Regardless of how faithful or unfaithful they have been.
@As I mentioned in my first (post) to you in sequence:
“Those without holiness will not see the Lord.” (Heb). This is their experiential holiness. They cannot see the Lord in the rapture. Unholy believers are unfaithful believers. No rapture. Yet, in their persecutions and trials they will remember Christ’s love for them as Paul has taught them elsewhere. They do have the hope of a Kingdom with Christ. They will see that Kingdom. @
The comforting word Paul relates is "My beloved, don't concern yourself that those who have died will be left out when Christ returns."
@I have said those who died faithful will not be left out. Neither will the unfaithful dead. They will be raised to life on earth and be transformed at the same time their unfaithful cousins exit the trib.
The unholy (unfaithful) and the unholy unbelievers will go through the trib.
@
Mr. Davis said: ↑
They, while saved, will be acting like those swept away in Noah’s time (Matt 24:37-39).
And you have absolutely no Scripture to support that. First, there is no destruction directly tied to the Rapture itself.
@
The unholy-unfaithful (not friends of the Lord because they do not obey him) are not destroyed (because there is no destruction). And, neither do they love Him because they do not obey His words. (John) It is merely an example of how they act—careless and unafraid of God. (like the destroyed).
@
Secondly, this...
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
...refers to the Second Coming, not the Rapture.
@
You must admit that the first rapture is a “coming” of the Lord. So is the second (Matthew 24, 1 Corinthians 15) The difference is that the first is secret (the world is not aware of it). The second, the whole world knows about it.
In the first rapture the Lord does not “touch ground.” In the second He finally does.
He came from heaven to earth in His first coming. He came secretly, above the earth, in His second. His final coming (which the world would count as the second) would first be a receiving in the clouds of the faithful on the earth (the second rapture). Their transformation to having new bodies would then occur (Matt 24; 1 Cor 15). The faithful dead of the Tribulation would also appear with them in new bodies.
Regardless of how faithful or unfaithful they have been.
@As I mentioned in my first (post) to you in sequence:
“Those without holiness will not see the Lord.” (Heb). This is their experiential holiness. They cannot see the Lord in the rapture. Unholy believers are unfaithful believers. No rapture. Yet, in their persecutions and trials they will remember Christ’s love for them as Paul has taught them elsewhere. They do have the hope of a Kingdom with Christ. They will see that Kingdom. @
The comforting word Paul relates is "My beloved, don't concern yourself that those who have died will be left out when Christ returns."
@I have said those who died faithful will not be left out. Neither will the unfaithful dead. They will be raised to life on earth and be transformed at the same time their unfaithful cousins exit the trib.
The unholy (unfaithful) and the unholy unbelievers will go through the trib.
@
Mr. Davis said: ↑
They, while saved, will be acting like those swept away in Noah’s time (Matt 24:37-39).
And you have absolutely no Scripture to support that. First, there is no destruction directly tied to the Rapture itself.
@
The unholy-unfaithful (not friends of the Lord because they do not obey him) are not destroyed (because there is no destruction). And, neither do they love Him because they do not obey His words. (John) It is merely an example of how they act—careless and unafraid of God. (like the destroyed).
@
Secondly, this...
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
...refers to the Second Coming, not the Rapture.
@
You must admit that the first rapture is a “coming” of the Lord. So is the second (Matthew 24, 1 Corinthians 15) The difference is that the first is secret (the world is not aware of it). The second, the whole world knows about it.
In the first rapture the Lord does not “touch ground.” In the second He finally does.
He came from heaven to earth in His first coming. He came secretly, above the earth, in His second. His final coming (which the world would count as the second) would first be a receiving in the clouds of the faithful on the earth (the second rapture). Their transformation to having new bodies would then occur (Matt 24; 1 Cor 15). The faithful dead of the Tribulation would also appear with them in new bodies.
What qualifies as a Christian passing the line from going up or not? What sin, how long, how much?Part of your (second?) reply to me was:
Regardless of how faithful or unfaithful they have been.
@As I mentioned in my first (post) to you in sequence:
“Those without holiness will not see the Lord.” (Heb). This is their experiential holiness. They cannot see the Lord in the rapture. Unholy believers are unfaithful believers. No rapture. Yet, in their persecutions and trials they will remember Christ’s love for them as Paul has taught them elsewhere. They do have the hope of a Kingdom with Christ. They will see that Kingdom. @
The comforting word Paul relates is "My beloved, don't concern yourself that those who have died will be left out when Christ returns."
@I have said those who died faithful will not be left out. Neither will the unfaithful dead. They will be raised to life on earth and be transformed at the same time their unfaithful cousins exit the trib.
The unholy (unfaithful) and the unholy unbelievers will go through the trib.
@
Mr. Davis said: ↑
They, while saved, will be acting like those swept away in Noah’s time (Matt 24:37-39).
And you have absolutely no Scripture to support that. First, there is no destruction directly tied to the Rapture itself.
@
The unholy-unfaithful (not friends of the Lord because they do not obey him) are not destroyed (because there is no destruction). And, neither do they love Him because they do not obey His words. (John) It is merely an example of how they act—careless and unafraid of God. (like the destroyed).
@
Secondly, this...
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
...refers to the Second Coming, not the Rapture.
@
You must admit that the first rapture is a “coming” of the Lord. So is the second (Matthew 24, 1 Corinthians 15) The difference is that the first is secret (the world is not aware of it). The second, the whole world knows about it.
In the first rapture the Lord does not “touch ground.” In the second He finally does.
He came from heaven to earth in His first coming. He came secretly, above the earth, in His second. His final coming (which the world would count as the second) would first be a receiving in the clouds of the faithful on the earth (the second rapture). Their transformation to having new bodies would then occur (Matt 24; 1 Cor 15). The faithful dead of the Tribulation would also appear with them in new bodies.
Sequence 3?
Mr. Davis said: ↑
The Corinthians passage is associated with the one in Matthew because they both contain the second, or final “trump.”
There is no "second trump" apart from the Second Trumpet Judgment of Revelation.
The Trumpet sounding in Matthew is not said to be the final trump.
The Last Trump here...
1 Corinthians 15:52
King James Version (KJV)
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
...is probably better understood in the context of this trumpet call:
@
The first trump is mentioned in 1 Thes 4:16. Matt 24:31 has believers gathered into the clouds with the trump that comes after the first one. The second trump. Read it! 1 Cor. 15:2 says the last trump. This is the second trump. They all have to do with raptures. The Corinthians passage can’t be referring to the first rapture. They are not the same trumps!
These trumps have nothing to do with the Trumpet Judgments!
Those trumpets blow during the trib. The first trump occurs at the first rapture. Getting the saints off of the earth. The second (last) trump gets the saints off the earth as well (second rapture).
All I see in the Exodus passage is a trumpet call, God coming down, and people gathered. Isn’t this somewhat like a foreshadowing of a rapture?
Mr. Davis said: ↑
The Corinthians passage is associated with the one in Matthew because they both contain the second, or final “trump.”
There is no "second trump" apart from the Second Trumpet Judgment of Revelation.
The Trumpet sounding in Matthew is not said to be the final trump.
The Last Trump here...
1 Corinthians 15:52
King James Version (KJV)
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
...is probably better understood in the context of this trumpet call:
@
The first trump is mentioned in 1 Thes 4:16. Matt 24:31 has believers gathered into the clouds with the trump that comes after the first one. The second trump. Read it! 1 Cor. 15:2 says the last trump. This is the second trump. They all have to do with raptures. The Corinthians passage can’t be referring to the first rapture. They are not the same trumps!
These trumps have nothing to do with the Trumpet Judgments!
Those trumpets blow during the trib. The first trump occurs at the first rapture. Getting the saints off of the earth. The second (last) trump gets the saints off the earth as well (second rapture).
All I see in the Exodus passage is a trumpet call, God coming down, and people gathered. Isn’t this somewhat like a foreshadowing of a rapture?