-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Sign Gifts
- Thread starter Berean
- Start date
Signs of an Apostle:
Mrk 16:19-20
So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following.
Acts 2:43
many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.
II Cor. 12:11-12
for in nothing am I behind the very chiefest apostles, though I be nothing. Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.
Heb. 2:3-4
so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will
Mrk 16:19-20
So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following.
Acts 2:43
many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.
II Cor. 12:11-12
for in nothing am I behind the very chiefest apostles, though I be nothing. Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.
Heb. 2:3-4
so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will
Thanks Jerome!
1 Cor 13.
I do not consider that 1 Corinthians 13 speaks of the cease as a result of the completion or giving of the Scriptures.
There was a time I held this thinking, but I found it insufficient in light of the author of the letter to the Corinthian church, a church he wrote at least three letters if not more. Perhaps more than any other assembly?
I consider the gifts cease in the "it" - the Millennial reign - when all believers will know perfectly, no mystery and contentions of the Scriptures, all believers are known by all and have no hidden agendas or desires of manipulation. and there is no lack of knowledge about God or the things of God.
There is yet to be written a "perfect" translation of the Scriptures, and the translators present that they did the best they could, but more scholarship may reveal more changes are necessary.
There is not a "perfection" attained while looking into and being examined by the Scriptures, for the human condition does not allow for totally honest examination, which is why the Psalmist appealed to God to search him, try him, see if there were anything wicked that needed cleansed. The Holy Spirit can and does lead us into all truth, and the Scriptures are the revealed truth, yet there are the hidden things of God that are not revealed but remain a mystery. One can conjecture or construct a manner of view about such mysteries, but until the Millennial reign the mystery is still mysterious.
Even our Lord said of the Holy Spirit that it comes from and goes to no one but God knows.
Paul, possibly the most profound scholar of Scriptures (in which Peter remarked his writing was difficult (hard)) did not see but the shadows as through a highly smudged window.
If he could not, what person in the last 1900 years has any greater authority?
Nope, the only time the gifts of God cease is in the millennial reign, when we see Him face to face, we know as we are known, and there is nothing hidden from our understanding. No need at that time of language skills, no need of the gifted and talented. No need to seek esteemed scholars for answers.
We have the very King in which we may look upon face to face and we will know as we are known.
There was a time I held this thinking, but I found it insufficient in light of the author of the letter to the Corinthian church, a church he wrote at least three letters if not more. Perhaps more than any other assembly?
I consider the gifts cease in the "it" - the Millennial reign - when all believers will know perfectly, no mystery and contentions of the Scriptures, all believers are known by all and have no hidden agendas or desires of manipulation. and there is no lack of knowledge about God or the things of God.
There is yet to be written a "perfect" translation of the Scriptures, and the translators present that they did the best they could, but more scholarship may reveal more changes are necessary.
There is not a "perfection" attained while looking into and being examined by the Scriptures, for the human condition does not allow for totally honest examination, which is why the Psalmist appealed to God to search him, try him, see if there were anything wicked that needed cleansed. The Holy Spirit can and does lead us into all truth, and the Scriptures are the revealed truth, yet there are the hidden things of God that are not revealed but remain a mystery. One can conjecture or construct a manner of view about such mysteries, but until the Millennial reign the mystery is still mysterious.
Even our Lord said of the Holy Spirit that it comes from and goes to no one but God knows.
Paul, possibly the most profound scholar of Scriptures (in which Peter remarked his writing was difficult (hard)) did not see but the shadows as through a highly smudged window.
If he could not, what person in the last 1900 years has any greater authority?
Nope, the only time the gifts of God cease is in the millennial reign, when we see Him face to face, we know as we are known, and there is nothing hidden from our understanding. No need at that time of language skills, no need of the gifted and talented. No need to seek esteemed scholars for answers.
We have the very King in which we may look upon face to face and we will know as we are known.
I would see the so called sign gifts as not needed for today, as the scriptures themselves are all sufficient to train/instruct/mature us in the faith, as those sign gifts were for the transition period recorded to us in the book of Acts.
Author od Hebrews seems to be indicating here that at the time of this recording of this down by Him, the signs and wonders were pretty much ceased, as they had done their task to validate the person and ministry of Christ!
There seems to be s distinct waning and ceasing after the book of Acts....
There is no scripture that announces the discontinuation of the sign gifts. Neither does that mean that they should or are as prevalent as they were at one time.
The need though for them no longer really exists!
Says who?
Paul, writing some time around 60 AD, said, in 1 Cor 13:13 "But now faith, hope, and love remain—these three. The greatest of these is love."
He did not say, "But now faith, hope, love. tongues, prophecy, and knowledge remain—these six. The greatest of these is love."
Paul seems to make it very clear. At the time he penned 1 Corinthians the sign gifts were no longer being given. They would continue as long as those already gifted lived, but as that generation died out, the sign gifts died out with them.
Paul, writing some time around 60 AD, said, in 1 Cor 13:13 "But now faith, hope, and love remain—these three. The greatest of these is love."
He did not say, "But now faith, hope, love. tongues, prophecy, and knowledge remain—these six. The greatest of these is love."
Paul seems to make it very clear. At the time he penned 1 Corinthians the sign gifts were no longer being given. They would continue as long as those already gifted lived, but as that generation died out, the sign gifts died out with them.
Why cannot faith, hope, love, remain even through out eternity? Do they ever cease and is this not that overriding statement of Paul?
The question of ceasing is not resolved by placing the Scriptures as the key, for there is not a mention of the Scriptures in that whole passage.
What is mentioned is that current condition and what will occur at the time in which there is no need for such gifts. And that condition may only be met in the Millennium.
There was no Scripture statement made that gifts were relegated to some transition period.
Again, I don't see any Scripture statement for such happening.
Perhaps it is there and I missed it.
Paul lost his gift to heal for Timothy...
The authors states to us that Jesus was attested to and confirmed by the Apostles, but seems to indicate no more of that needed to be going on now...
I don't remember arguing otherwise.
Not that I know of, and no, the context indicates otherwise..
The ministry of the Apostles is the key. When the last of the Apostles died the Apostolic gifts died with him.
No Apostles, no gifts.