You denied that God saved the OT believers in the same fashion that He does us today?
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The Limited Gospel?
- Thread starter Darrell C
- Start date
Not in his lifetime he wasn't.
No, he simply believed God in what he was promised, and that is what was counted as righteousness.
And it was something he did, as opposed to what Christ did.
Actually, we do not, because you did not quote the entire statement:
Its one thing to trust God to provide in the physical, another to trust God to provide in the Eternal.
He is...
...now, lol.
And that is why this discussion is important, Gup, because Abraham...
...never had a chance to do this.
It was done for him. He did not contribute to his salvation in the least. And that is why it is important for you to understand the difference between Abraham being justified through obedience, faith, belief, and works, and Abraham being eternally redeemed through the shed blood of Christ, and Justified (on an eternal basis) through the Redemption which in in Christ Jesus.
No.
He didn't do anything, lol.
No, Gup, lol.
Now you are calling believing the Gospel of Christ, which he did not do to begin with, as a qualifier for salvation.
That is the problem with the modern soteriological pattern...it is a works-based religious concept.
You are saying Abraham was saved because of his works and faith, and the Gospel of Christ is that no man qualified for anything...but death.
That is false. Abraham did not believe the Gospel of Christ because it was not yet revealed.
If you want to believe the Gospel Abraham did have, which was that God would provide an heir from his own bowels, that all families of the earth would be blessed through him/his seed, or that he would be the father of many nations and have innumerable descendants, great.
Just don't confuse that with the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
Again, Paul expounds the Gospel "preached" to Abraham from a New Testament perspective, he is not saying that Abraham had the Revealed Mystery of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
Abraham did not receive the Righteousness of Christ.
That is why Abraham died still in need of redemption.
Romans 3:20-25
King James Version (KJV)
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
He might be your father, but not mine. My Father is the One Who gave Abraham the promise, but gave me the PRomise.
God bless.
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Where is your Scripture to support the heresy you are preaching?
Then I will answer your next question.
God bless.
We do have a fuller understanding, because the Mystery has been revealed.
THat's the point I have striving at all along, my friend.
It goes beyond that, really.
There is a greater difference between knowing that the Christ would die for our sin on an eternal basis versus a knowledge that Christ would restore things in the physical realm. The Old Testament is primarily physical in nature, and the penalty for death is a good example. When men broke the revealed will of GOd for them, they were put to death physically. I don't think we can impose into all who died physically, as a result of their sin, eternal judgment. Certainly it is likely that many put to death went into torment, but, the bottom line is that in the temporal sentence was carried out, and the penalty for sin was exacted.
We see that same thing in Ananias and Sapphira, as well as in those who died for partaking of Communion unworthily. When the Bible states the penalty for sin is death, it has two perspective, and again, the Old Testament was primarily in a physical context.
More specifically what is revealed is an understanding of Prophecy that would have been understood primarily in a physical context. Go back and read the Gospels with that in mind, and you will understand the disciples better. Because they were expectant of a physical descendant of David, Abraham, and Eve through Whom blessings would arise, and a physical Kingdom that would be Israel restored, they were heart-fallen when the One the Father revealed to them as the Christ...said He was leaving. And this...without restoring the Kingdom unto Israel (as Prophecy and Promise said would occur.
As I said, Abraham was only a model of faith. I do not see him exalted above other men in relation to Christ. He was a sufficient type, but not the reality. God is our Father, not Abraham. That he is our "father" is no different than Paul being a father to those he discipled:
1 Corinthians 4:15
King James Version (KJV)
15 For though ye have ten thousand instructers in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.
It is a figure of speech and does not even compare to the reality of God being our Father. It is in a temporal perspective we would view Abraham as a father, and we do not, in this Age...have a temporal perspective.
Bingo.
That is the entire point.
If we equate the faith of Abraham with faith in Christ we establish two methods by which men can be eternally redeemed. Abraham did not place his faith in the risen Savior as men are commanded to do today. He was obedient to the revelation given to him, just as Adam was not.
Exactly right.
That is why I gave at one point this:
Hebrews 10:28-29
King James Version (KJV)
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Those who rejected God's will as established in the Covenant of Law (Moses' Law) will not be punished as severely as those who reject Christ the Son of GOd, His Sacrifice, His Covenant, and the ministry of the Comforter.
Exactly right. That is how GOd has always dealt with men. He is righteous, just, and merciful, and we see some basic principles throughout His Word:
1. He always reveals His will to men;
2. He demands obedience only to that which has been revealed;
3. He still shows grace to those who do not obey, which, according to both Old and New Testaments, is everyone who has ever lived.
Hence the desperate need for Him to provide Himself a Lamb.
A lot more, really.
But, this is one important aspect of the Gospel: it is revealed by the Comforter, the Spirit of Truth and Grace.
Men do not have the ability to comprehend the Gospel apart from enlightenment. And this is another principle we see all throughout Scripture...God is the One Who always initiates relationship between Himself and man.
Your a good man, Gup. Few would admit to changing a position in public, lol.
There will be another Temple, two in fact.
God bless.
You are preaching believers as the sons of Abraham, when Scripture calls us sons of God:
John 1:11-13
King James Version (KJV)
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Romans 8:14
King James Version (KJV)
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Galatians 4:6
King James Version (KJV)
6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
Philippians 2:15
King James Version (KJV)
15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;
1 John 3:1-2
King James Version (KJV)
1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
The attribution to Gentiles as the sons of Abraham was a recognition of Gentile Inclusion, that the blessing promised to come through Abraham, through the seed, and to the seed, through the Seed...was also for Gentiles. This brings together the blessing for the seed and the blessing of "all families of the earth."
Continued...
No one can be saved unless the Holy Spirit indwells them. correct?
And where did you read that? I can tell you, in the doctrines of men.
It is not a necessity that we be both sons of Abraham and sons of God.
Abraham is presented as a model, even as Paul presented himself as a model, yet he never failed to keep his preaching centered on Christ as the focus.
Jesus did not inherit righteousness, lol, He was Righteousness incarnate.
Your proof text does not support your statement, and I would ask you to note carefully that we are "made righteous" only because we are in Him. Its not our righteousness, just as it was not Abraham's righteousness, it is imputed on our behalf. The Source is God, only He is righteous from an eternal perspective, and it takes that kind of righteousness to avoid eternal judgment.
I am more a son of Paul than a son of Abraham.
Somehow I just can't see Paul lying to Pharaoh about his wife, lol.
That is correct.
And that is what Paul is trying to say...they are "descendants" through faith, meaning, they inherit the blessing just as the literal descendant would.
Nothing more.
He didn't express faith in the Gospel of Jesus Christ, he expressed faith in the blessings promised by God.
I would agree:
Hebrews 6:17-20
King James Version (KJV)
17 Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:
18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:
19 Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;
20 Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
I look at it like this, Gup: we are the "chosen" because we have turned in faith to Christ.
We have received the promises (most of them anyway, lol) because we are saved.
I would not go that far: we see a clear pattern of God choosing men throughout Scripture. This is true of Noah, Abraham, Moses, David, Jonah, and Saul/Paul.
But I do not overlook the Basic Principle taught in God's Word which teaches that God gives every man and woman the opportunity to be saved.
Here is an example of that in Christ's teachings:
Luke 16:27-31
King James Version (KJV)
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
Abraham is not saying they will be saved by keeping the Law, because we already know...no man can do that. What he is saying, and what Christ is teaching is that men have been given God's will for their lives, and the "hearing" in view is obedience.
I agree for the most part, however, we do not overlook the fact that God does in fact intervene in the lives of men, and sometimes those men are not willing, or, can be seen to have a different agenda, and ended obedient to the will of God...
...anyway.
That should actually be a comforting thought, because we know that GOd has intervened in the lives of all who are saved.
The reason? Glad you asked...
1 John 4:19
King James Version (KJV)
19 We love him, because he first loved us.
Not really something that supports Free Will (which is a false doctrine), because these are temporal expectations, and do not contribute to Eternal Redemption.
Hey, thanks for the responses, Gup, I have enjoyed them.
Again, I just want to reiterate that nothing said in these posts are meant to offend you, but to get you thinking. You will have to forgive me for yanking your chain a little, but, the issues we discuss are vitally important, and I have a strange sense of humor...
God bless.
Enough deflection, bring Scripture to support your heresy and then we will advance to the next question.
God bless.
All of the OT saints were included who got saved under the Covenant of Grace that started in Gen 3:15, and continued all the way to Calvary!
You should not be accusing your brother in Christ of heresy. Shame on you!
Try Romans 8:7-11.
Are just the NT saved raised up and resurrected than ?
I completely agree, lol.
It is a parroting of his often accusations against others without a Scriptural basis.
So nyaah!
God bless.
Its not something we can be entirely dogmatic about. It is equally possible that Old Testament Saints will be raised at the Rapture, or, raised at the Great White Throne.
I lean towards their resurrection at the Rapture based on Abraham being a part of the Kingdom:
Matthew 8:11
King James Version (KJV)
11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
However, this could be a reference to the Eternal State, and the general resurrection which takes place at the Great White Throne will fulfill the foundational principles of resurrection as taught in the Old Testament.
God bless.
Aren't all of those raised up at the time of the GWT though just the unsaved/lost from all history?
Paul states to us that for anyone to be saved by God, the spirit of Christ has to dwell within them, so the OT believers in the promised Messiah would have the same Spirit that we have today.
Sorry, no.
What Paul states is that if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, which he equates with the Spirit of God...
Romans 8:9
King James Version (KJV)
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
...he does not belong to God.
Now, the problem you're having is pretty much the same problem most people have, you are imposing into the Old Testament that which did not begin until Christ came, died, arose from the dead...
...and then sent the Spirit (of Grace, of Truth) that Paul is referring to here.
The Disciples of Christ did not have the eternal indwelling of God:
John 14:15-18
King James Version (KJV)
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
You and I have discussed this enough that you should not once again be asking the same questions about the same issues. You need to study more, and spend less time telling others what is wrong with their doctrine, particularly when you are not presenting Scripture to back up your statements.
Try this, brother: every time you want to tell someone they are wrong about something, or want to make what you think is a statement of truth...find the Scripture that shows what you are saying is correct, or what they are saying is incorrect, but preferably both.
The above is our Lord speaking of what is going to take place at a future date, and what we can say dogmatically is that the Disciples had not yet received the eternal indwelling (v.16) of God the Father, Son. and Holy Ghost. He tells them the Holy Spirit is in in fact with them, but will be in them, and this...forever (as contrasted with His Own interaction with them which would be ending soon, which is why their hearts were troubled).
See that same indwelling, which was not taking place at that time, spoken of again by the Lord:
John 14:22-23
King James Version (KJV)
22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
God bless.