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Pelagianism: The Boogie Man

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Revmitchell, Mar 2, 2018.

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  1. thatbrian

    thatbrian Well-Known Member
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    Yes. I did and I do.
     
    #21 thatbrian, Mar 4, 2018
  2. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    I seems we choose to consider theories than understand seek to scripture, singular and as a whiole

    1Co 2:14
    But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

    Jhn 6:44
    No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day

    Eph 2:8
    For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
     
    #22 loDebar, Mar 4, 2018
  3. JamesL

    JamesL Well-Known Member
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    Well, that's the way of the Southern Baptist "Traditionalist" faction, which is the persuasion of Flowers, who authored the article in the OP.

    Scripture is meaning less and less, and "philosophy" is meaning more and more, it seems. Then scripture is nothing but a convenient tool which is brought out only when it needs to be used to lend weight to doctrines which have been "reasoned out" beforehand
     
    #23 JamesL, Mar 4, 2018
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  4. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    "Revmitchell,
    Hiding behind the failed philosophy of Leighton Flowers is not helpful.
    His doublespeak philosophy is devoid of any scriptural wisdom.
     
    #24 Iconoclast, Mar 4, 2018
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  5. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    BobRyan,

    Yes, Rm and Leighton should not engage in this.
     
    #25 Iconoclast, Mar 4, 2018
  6. Garrett20

    Garrett20 Member

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    You have successfully summed up my theological, soteriological viewpoint. Arminius himself was a ‘4-pointer’ after all. Regardless, without total depravity, I do not believe one can accurately present the gospel.

    Nevertheless, I admit I am completely in awe of how creative and wonderful our God is. Studying His Word is truly a treat. And to think we see ‘through a glass darkly’ for now...
     
    #26 Garrett20, Mar 4, 2018
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  7. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    You have correctly outlined the root symptom of this issue. Departing from the "light of scripture" a person goes into darkness....
    35 Then Jesus said unto them, Yet a little while is the light with you. Walk while ye have the light, lest darkness come upon you: for he that walketh in darkness knoweth not whither he goeth.

    36 While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.
     
    #27 Iconoclast, Mar 4, 2018
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  8. JamesL

    JamesL Well-Known Member
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    For sure, it's one thing for two people to read the scriptures and understand them differently. Study, debate, etc. can help in coming to a better understanding.

    It's another thing altogether for someone to reject plain scriptural teaching because it's not palatable.
     
    #28 JamesL, Mar 4, 2018
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  9. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    God's spelling must be off today, to choose our elect brethren spelling.
     
    #29 utilyan, Mar 4, 2018
  10. Saved-By-Grace

    Saved-By-Grace Well-Known Member

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    You say that "A true Arminian would accept...", is this what Arminius taught in his 5 points?
     
    #30 Saved-By-Grace, Mar 4, 2018
  11. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    I have no idea what you mean by the above.
     
    #31 Rippon, Mar 4, 2018
  12. thatbrian

    thatbrian Well-Known Member
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    Yes, and that is precisely how Arminian soteriology began and why it continues to this day. The biblical revelation in regard to this matter is not palatable. The great irony, of course, is that it is the sweetest honey and finest wine. One only need open his month and taste.
     
    #32 thatbrian, Mar 5, 2018
  13. thatbrian

    thatbrian Well-Known Member
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    Arminius didn't have 5 points.
     
    #33 thatbrian, Mar 5, 2018
  14. Saved-By-Grace

    Saved-By-Grace Well-Known Member

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    #34 Saved-By-Grace, Mar 5, 2018
  15. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    #35 Yeshua1, Mar 5, 2018
  16. Saved-By-Grace

    Saved-By-Grace Well-Known Member

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    yes
     
    #36 Saved-By-Grace, Mar 5, 2018
  17. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Maybe. Maybe not. They were published after his death, but only a year after, so we really don't know how much they changed them in that year.

    The Five Points of the Remonstrance

    Article I — That God, by an eternal, unchangeable purpose in Jesus Christ, his Son, before the foundation of the world, hath determined, out of the fallen, sinful race of men, to save in Christ, for Christ's sake, and through Christ, those who, through the grace of the Holy Ghost, shall believe on this his Son Jesus, and shall persevere in this faith and obedience of faith, through this grace, even to the end; and, on the other hand, to leave the incorrigible and unbelieving in sin and under wrath, and to condemn them as alienate from Christ, according to the word of the Gospel in John iii. 36: "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life; and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him," and according to other passages of Scripture also.

    Article II — That, agreeably thereto, Jesus Christ, the Savior of the world, died for all men and for every man, so that he has obtained for them all, by his death on the cross, redemption, and the forgiveness of sins; yet that no one actually enjoys this forgiveness of sins, except the believer, according to the word of the Gospel of John iii. 16: "God so loved the world that he gave his only-begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life"; and in the First Epistle of John ii. 2: "And he is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."

    Article III — That man has not saving grace of himself, nor of the energy of his free will, inasmuch as he, in the state of apostasy and sin, can of and by himself neither think, will, nor do anything that is truly good (such as having faith eminently is); but that it is needful that he be born again of God in Christ, through his Holy Spirit, and renewed in understanding, inclination, or will, and all his powers, in order that he may rightly understand, think, will, and effect what is truly good, according to the word of Christ, John xv. 5: "Without me ye can do nothing."

    Article IV — That this grace of God is the beginning, continuance, and accomplishment of a good, even to this extent, that the regenerate man himself, without that prevenient or assisting, awakening, following, and co-operative grace, can neither think, will, nor do good, nor withstand any temptations to evil; so that all good deeds or movements, that can be conceived, must be ascribed to the grace of God in Christ. But, as respects the mode of the operation of this grace, it is not irresistible, in as much as it is written concerning many that they have resisted the Holy Ghost,—Acts vii, and elsewhere in many places.

    Article V — That those who are incorporated into Christ by a true faith, and have thereby become partakers of his life-giving Spirit, have thereby full power to strive against Satan, sin, the world, and their own flesh, and to win the victory, it being well understood that it is ever through the assisting grace of the Holy Ghost; and that Jesus Christ assists them through his Spirit in all temptations, extends to them his hand, and if only they are ready for the conflict, and desire his help, and are not inactive, keeps them from falling, so that they, by no craft or power of Satan, can be misled, nor plucked out of Christ's hands, according to the word of Christ, John x. 28: "Neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand." But whether they are capable, through negligence, of forsaking again the first beginnings of their life in Christ, of again returning to this present evil world, of turning away from the holy doctrine which was delivered them, of losing a good conscience, of becoming devoid of grace, that must be more particularly determined out of the Holy Scriptures before they can teach it with the full persuasion of their minds.
     
    #37 TCassidy, Mar 5, 2018
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  18. glad4mercy

    glad4mercy Active Member

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    I am a non-Calvinist, and I believe that the beginning of faith is wrought or brought about by the act of God through the preaching of the Word and the ministry of the Holy Spirit. And that GOD COMPLETES the work HE BEGAN in us. (Phil. 1:6). So God starts the work and He finishes it. I oppose Pelagianism in all it's forms with every fiber of who I am. But I'm not a Calvinist either. It's not all Calvinists, Pelagians, and Semi Pelagians. There are a lot of Bible believing Christians that do not fall under any of those designations.
     
    #38 glad4mercy, Mar 23, 2018
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  19. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Those are simply Calvinist terms much like the made up word monergism and synergism. When ever you write the word monergism in posts or even in say MS Word it comes up with a red line and the only alternative spelling is synergism.

    They use those titles to demean and belittle those with whom they disagree with. Its all born out of arrogance.
     
    #39 Revmitchell, Mar 23, 2018
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  20. glad4mercy

    glad4mercy Active Member

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    A true Arminianism would agree with Limited Atonement, but not in the way defined by TULIP. And Irresistable Grace, as you said, is an imprecise term

    We agree regarding the fact that the atonement of Christ's blood Is applied only to believers, in that sense it is Limited. But most Calvinists believe that God will infallibly save all that Jesus died for, which would mean He didn't die for everyone. But in point two of the Remonstrant articles you posted, it says Jesus died for all men. So to say that Arminians believe in Limited atonement is true, but not in the same way that Calvinists hold
     
    #40 glad4mercy, Mar 27, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2018
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