Continuation of Why Y'all Aint Calvinists thread

I trust your opinion on this, as you are an expert in the field.

 

Some might be "nasty", but I would say that they are angry , and they are angry as a result of their experience.

I grew up in the Roman Catholic Church and when I heard the gospel at 17 from a relative who had recently been saved, it was for the very first time, in spite of the hundreds of masses and catechism classes I had attended. To say I was angry at the RCC for not preaching the gospel would be an huge understatement, and the outrage I felt was justified. That experience was repeated after 2+ decades of life in a shallow, wishy washy semi-Pelagian church which gave me a gospel-less "Christianity" which was nothing more than moralism. It was law-light. It was "moralistic, therapeutic, deism".

Do I still hate what both of these places who are charged with preaching the gospel have done to me and millions of others? I do.

 

Thus speaks the local Free-Willy.

 

The Federal Headship view (for those unfamiliar with it) means that Adam was humanities fair and just representative. He was created without sin. He had an ability no human since (save Christ) has ever had; the ability not to sin. When Adam sinner he did so federally; acting on our behalf. All of Adam's posterity were effected. While we did not commit the actual sin of Adam, it is as though we did since Adam sinned on our behalf. But lest we think we are better than Adam, we are also sinner's because of our sin. "For all have sinned" (Romans 3:23).

As far as Adam being representative of mankind as a whole, I think that is an unnecessary distinction. He federally represented mankind through his sin, but I think that it is as far as it goes.

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Jon,

This is why I am such a stickler for defining words and terms. When you said you agreed with my post about Adam being our federal head, I surmised you did not agree in the way the Reformers viewed Adam's federal headship. It is not that I am trying to put you on the spot; it is that good theology requires careful and complete vetting. For instance, I do believe Adam's sin was considered by God as an act of all people, and thus all people sinned in Adam. The converse of that is Pelagius' view that man is born tabula rasa and Adam was responsible for his own sin (although God cursed creation and humanity with death). I do not believe God "weaves sin into our being". God is not the author sin. I believe the Bible teaches that sin was imputed to humanity through Adam's disobedience. Call it a curse if you will, that is binding on Adam's posterity.

As far as Christ, there is a distinct judicial aspect of Christ's obedience on behalf of the Elect. The Elect are declared righteous through the actions of another (alien righteousness) - Christ. This is a legal declaration. We seem to disagree on this, so it is important to bring this to the forefront. Intellectual honesty in a debate is a good thing, no?

 

That would be sue to you having a faulty view regarding the effects of the Fall, and on sinful human natures that we have all received as a result of that!

 

So we would have received within us the same judgement of God, so we all were born in his likeness, and thus spiritually dead, sinners by nature!

 

We have all a nature in us, the part of that wills us to sin and disbelieve God, all are born with the natural bent to sin....

 

Humans, save for jesus, are born with the nature that has us in rebellion and self willed apart from God right from the start!

 

Jesus could not have the exact same human nature as we all have, as that would have meant that God would have seen Him in Adam and dead in His own sins, and not qualified to save us!
And we cannot just refuse to sin ourselves, and to say Jesus did by just relying upon the Holy Spirit, as Jesus was/is God in human flesh, and we are not!

 

God judged all of humanity to receive spiritual /physical death, and the judgement after this life is something else entirely!

 

Based upon what he has posted, he severely disagrees with the reformed view on this, and the Fall effects on us...

 

Romans 8:3, Romans 6:6, Colossians 3:5, to name a few!

 

I wasn’t suggesting you personally had the need... rather I was sighting it in general

 

Adam sinned, became a sinner, and humans are born with sin natures now as a result...
We are not born as blank natures, with a choice to be sinners or not!