OSAS does not survive the "Sola Scriptura test" in Matthew 18..etc

[BobRyan]

Our Catholic friends frequently get presented with the problem of "tradition of man" vs "sola scriptura testing".

Well here is a topic where they might want to point that out.

Because OSAS does not surive the test of "Sola Scriptura"


Matthew 18 is specifically about forgiveness revoked.

32 Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him. 35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.”

Indeed -- Christ shows us the "fully forgiven" about whom it is said "I forgave you ALL" and yet due to subsequent actions of the "fully forgiven" -- they experience forgiveness revoked. until he should pay all that was due

Question for the reader -- In your POV is there such a thing as "Salvation where you pay your own debt of sin" -- having been "forgiven all" he then had to "repay all".. OR is Christ simply mistaken in your POV?

OSAS does not survive the sola-scriptura test in Matthew 18 nor in Romans 11 nor in Ezekiel 18 (nor even Matthew 6)

Romans 11
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

 

[Pastor_Bob]

Matthew 18 is specifically about forgiveness revoked.

I believe this parable is specifically about failing to forgive.

 

[utilyan]

Theres about 150+ verses against OSAS.

Have fun.

 

[BobRyan]

I believe this parable is specifically about failing to forgive.

True. But the only premise given in Christ's teaching in Matthew 18 for having any obligation at all to forgive others - is that you yourself first experienced full forgiveness from God. So this is not an unsaved lost person - but a fully forgiven person who has "experienced" that full forgiveness and out of that reality has the obligation to forgive others.

So now then when Christ says "So shall My Father do to each one of you" what is the "so?". The only one He had given is the one of "forgiveness revoked". Christ is saying that if those who follow Him.. who have experienced full and complete forgiveness.. do not then forgive others.. they will be faced with "forgiveness revoked". It does not work any other way -- beyond an "insert" of extreme wishful thinking forced into the text at that point.

 

[BobRyan]

Theres about 150+ verses against OSAS.

Have fun.

True. My point was that there is always some "hold their feet to the fire" that gets directed towards Catholics on a number of other topics under the umbrella "we choose sola-scriptura when it comes to this or that tradition".

So fine - this is a case of "turnaround is fair play".

Let's see how the responses stay focused on a sola-scriptura solution to it.

 

[Pastor_Bob]

True. But the only premise given in Christ's teaching in Matthew 18 for having any obligation at all to forgive others - is that you yourself first experienced full forgiveness from God. So this is not an unsaved lost person...

The issue that Jesus is presenting is forgiveness, not salvation.

 

[Salty]

I have two question about losing your salvation.
1) Is it for any Sin or just major sins?
2) if you do lose your salvation - and get saved again - are you required to be baptized again?

 

[delizzle]

Our Catholic friends frequently get presented with the problem of "tradition of man" vs "sola scriptura testing".

Well here is a topic where they might want to point that out.

Because OSAS does not surive the test of "Sola Scriptura"


Matthew 18 is specifically about forgiveness revoked.

32 Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him. 35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.”

Indeed -- Christ shows us the "fully forgiven" about whom it is said "I forgave you ALL" and yet due to subsequent actions of the "fully forgiven" -- they experience forgiveness revoked. until he should pay all that was due

Question for the reader -- In your POV is there such a thing as "Salvation where you pay your own debt of sin" -- having been "forgiven all" he then had to "repay all".. OR is Christ simply mistaken in your POV?

OSAS does not survive the sola-scriptura test in Matthew 18 nor in Romans 11 nor in Ezekiel 18 (nor even Matthew 6)

Romans 11
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Matthew 18? You need not look any further than Revelation 22:19.

"And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away [implying that it was once given] from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll."
Revelation 22:19 NIV

 

[delizzle]

I have two question about losing your salvation.
1) Is it for any Sin or just major sins?
2) if you do lose your salvation - and get saved again - are you required to be baptized again?

1) Apparently, according to scripture, blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, "adding to the scroll" mentioned in Rev 22:19, and unbelief are three examples of how someone can loose their salvation.

2) Hebrews clearly states that it is impossible for someone who was saved to apostasy and return to repentance. So it seems as though that after you lose your salvation...your without hope.

 

[BobRyan]

Pastor_Bob said: ↑
I believe this parable is specifically about failing to forgive.

True. But the only premise given in Christ's teaching in Matthew 18 for having any obligation at all to forgive others - is that you yourself first experienced full forgiveness from God. So this is not an unsaved lost person - but a fully forgiven person who has "experienced" that full forgiveness and out of that reality has the obligation to forgive others.

So now then when Christ says "So shall My Father do to each one of you" what is the "so?". The only one He had given is the one of "forgiveness revoked". Christ is saying that if those who follow Him.. who have experienced full and complete forgiveness.. do not then forgive others.. they will be faced with "forgiveness revoked". It does not work any other way -- beyond an "insert" of extreme wishful thinking forced into the text at that point.

The issue that Jesus is presenting is forgiveness, not salvation.

There is no Bible support for "forgiveness revoked - but still saved" that I have ever found If someone is going to hell to pay their own debt of sin... it is impossible for them to "still be saved". As it turns out - the two are connected.

So while it is true that the topic is forgiveness - the result of having forgiveness revoked... is still the lost of salvation unless you know of some "not forgiven.. but still saved" texts.

 

[BobRyan]

1) Apparently, according to scripture, blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, "adding to the scroll" mentioned in Rev 22:19, and unbelief are three examples of how someone can loose their salvation.

2) Hebrews clearly states that it is impossible for someone who was saved to apostasy and return to repentance. So it seems as though that after you lose your salvation...your without hope.

And according to Christ in Matthew 18 -- merely choosing not to forgive others after you have been saved and fully forgiven...will do it.

 

[BobRyan]

Matthew 18? You need not look any further than Revelation 22:19.

"And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away [implying that it was once given] from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll."
Revelation 22:19 NIV

Indeed that is a good point.

So also John 15 "every branch in ME that does not produce fruit... pruned and then cast away" if it does not reform

 

[BobRyan]

I have two question about losing your salvation.
1) Is it for any Sin or just major sins?
2) if you do lose your salvation - and get saved again - are you required to be baptized again?

The "sort of sin" Christ describes in Matthew 18 is pretty easy to see - wouldn't you agree?

If a sign drop down and you are certain that you have lost salvation - being baptized again would be good. Normally the lost do not know that they are lost as we see in Matthew 7.

Romans 11 speaks of the lost coming back "again" this way "He is able to graft them in again IF they do not continue in unbelief"

 

[BobRyan]

The issue that Jesus is presenting is forgiveness, not salvation.

And of course Jesus "could" have concluded with "so each one of you should forgive others because that is my command to you" -- would have fit perfectly with your suggestion that the rest of the details are to be ignored since it is a parable.

Instead of that Jesus appeals to the "very detail" in that parable that the OSAS people would argue 'is the most untrue about it"... "so shall My Father do to each one of you IF ..." hard to skim over that.

Very similar to the Sabbath commandment in Exodus 20 for the theistic evolutionist. Vs 11 appeals to "the very detail that is the most untrue" (in their minds) about the Genesis account and the statement in Genesis 2:1-3.

Pretty sobering thought for someone married to the idea of "sola scriptura" testing of all tradition and doctrine.

 

[delizzle]

Indeed that is a good point.

So also John 15 "every branch in ME that does not produce fruit... pruned and then cast away" if it does not reform

Take note as to how many pro-osas people ignore my comment about Rev 22:19. It is so obvious that they usually stay far away from it.

 

[Darrell C]

Because OSAS does not surive the test of "Sola Scriptura"

Still waiting for you to explain why this...


Hebrews 10:14
King James Version (KJV)

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.


...does not mean those who are sanctified by the Blood of Christ are not made perfect/complete in regards to remission of sins forever.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Matthew 18? You need not look any further than Revelation 22:19.

"And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away [implying that it was once given] from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll."
Revelation 22:19 NIV

You have to add to the Word of God to try to make your point, which is false doctrine and a rejection of the Salvation of Christ.

All men have been given the opportunity to be saved.

1) Apparently, according to scripture, blasphemy against the Holy Spirit,

The Blasphemy of the Holy Ghost is rejecting His efforts.

Here is another passage I am sure you will like, that makes the same point:


Hebrews 10:26-29
King James Version (KJV)

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?


The reason there remains "no more sacrifice for sins" is pretty simple, if you are not indoctrinated into false doctrine...

...because they are rejecting the only thing that can save them.

In view are Hebrews, not Christians, and if you look at the text you will see that this is not contrasting good Christian/bad Christian...it is contrasting from among the HEbrew people those who rejected Moses' Law (the Covenant of Law) and those who reject, in order...

1. Jesus Christ, The Son of God;
2. His Sacrifice;
3. His Covenant;
4. The efforts of the Spirit of Grace, the Comforter, Who is the One Who convicts unbelievers of sin, righteousness, and judgment:


John 16:7-9
King James Version (KJV)

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

"adding to the scroll" mentioned in Rev 22:19,

Then you are guilty:

"And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away [implying that it was once given] from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll."
Revelation 22:19 NIV

Not even the NIV has "[implying that it was once given]."

All men are in the Book of Life from conception. All men have the opportunity to be saved and thus share in the Eternal State.

But the singular point of common sense I would direct you to is that men must be in the Book of Life in order to be blotted out. Here is Moses:


Exodus 32:32-33
King James Version (KJV)

32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.

33 And the Lord said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.


Here is David asking that the enemies of Christ be blotted out:


Psalm 69:22-28
King James Version (KJV)

22 Let their table become a snare before them: and that which should have been for their welfare, let it become a trap.

23 Let their eyes be darkened, that they see not; and make their loins continually to shake.

24 Pour out thine indignation upon them, and let thy wrathful anger take hold of them.

25 Let their habitation be desolate; and let none dwell in their tents.

26 For they persecute him whom thou hast smitten; and they talk to the grief of those whom thou hast wounded.

27 Add iniquity unto their iniquity: and let them not come into thy righteousness.

28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.


Here is David confirming his days in God's Book:


Psalm 139:15-16
King James Version (KJV)

15 My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.

16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.


And here is Christ promising that anyone that overcomes will never be blotted out:


Revelation 3:5
King James Version (KJV)

5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.


"Overcoming" is a euphemism for salvation. John defines how one overcomes:


1 John 5:1-5
King James Version (KJV)

1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?


And if you want to say "that doesn't count because it isn't the same Book," then I would suggest you read the Epistles to the Churches and see what they are told to do, and told not to do.


Continued...

 

[delizzle]

Then you are guilty:





Not even the NIV has "[implying that it was once given]."

All men are in the Book of Life from conception. All men have the opportunity to be saved and thus share in the Eternal State.

But the singular point of common sense I would direct you to is that men must be in the Book of Life in order to be blotted out. Here is Moses:


Exodus 32:32-33
King James Version (KJV)

32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.

33 And the Lord said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.


Here is David asking that the enemies of Christ be blotted out:


Psalm 69:22-28
King James Version (KJV)

22 Let their table become a snare before them: and that which should have been for their welfare, let it become a trap.

23 Let their eyes be darkened, that they see not; and make their loins continually to shake.

24 Pour out thine indignation upon them, and let thy wrathful anger take hold of them.

25 Let their habitation be desolate; and let none dwell in their tents.

26 For they persecute him whom thou hast smitten; and they talk to the grief of those whom thou hast wounded.

27 Add iniquity unto their iniquity: and let them not come into thy righteousness.

28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.


Here is David confirming his days in God's Book:


Psalm 139:15-16
King James Version (KJV)

15 My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.

16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.


And here is Christ promising that anyone that overcomes will never be blotted out:


Revelation 3:5
King James Version (KJV)

5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.


"Overcoming" is a euphemism for salvation. John defines how one overcomes:


1 John 5:1-5
King James Version (KJV)

1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?


And if you want to say "that doesn't count because it isn't the same Book," then I would suggest you read the Epistles to the Churches and see what they are told to do, and told not to do.


Continued...

Before you continue, you do understand basic grammar rules where if there is a [ ] within a " ", it means that everything found within the [ ] is not part of the quote? Had I left out the [ ], you would be correct. Btw...Hebrews were written to Jews who converted to Christianity.

 

[Darrell C]

and unbelief are three examples of how someone can loose their salvation.

It's "lose," not loose. You would "loose" a horse that is tethered to a post, but you might lose the horse if you don't hold on to the tether. Sorry, not nitpicking, that's just a peeve of mine, lol.

And the fact is that unbelief is not a characteristic of those that have believed. BRing your Scriptural proof, and let's look at it, like we will look at the one you give in your next comment:

2) Hebrews clearly states that it is impossible for someone who was saved to apostasy and return to repentance. So it seems as though that after you lose your salvation...your without hope.

Your error is assuming they are saved.

The fact is that in view are Hebrews who are ignorant of the First Principles of the Word of God, and are rebuked because for the time they have been exposed to the Word of God, they should be teachers, but, are in need of being taught again themselves those First Principles (which speaks of the Hebrew Scriptures).

But you are leaving out a critical aspect of his statement:


Hebrews 5:10-14
King James Version (KJV)

10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.

11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.

12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.


His rebuke is directed at those who are infantile in their understanding and need someone to explain the ABCs of the Old Testament concerning Christ.

Now watch what he tells them to do:


Hebrews 6
King James Version (KJV)

1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

3 And this will we do, if God permit.


"Perfection" means "a bringing to an end," completion. What is "perfect" is the Doctrine that has been revealed about Christ in that day, or in other words, not the ABCs of the Old Testament in which we see the promise of Messiah coming, but...that He has come, and furthermore, that He has died to save them, and they are no longer to remain under Law.

Study the Book, the Writer takes a lot of time exhorting them to embrace the New Covenant.

They are told specifically not to lay again that which is foundational. These are Old Testament doctrines, not Christian Doctrine.


4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.


A couple things you need to consider when trying to make sense of this is...

1. The Comforter enlightens the natural mind to truth as He convicts unbelievers of sin, righteousness, and judgment. Being made a partaker of the Holy Spirit does not demand salvation and regeneration, because we have an entire Old Testament, including the Gospels, where men were made partakers of the Holy Spirit. They were enlightened to truth, empowered for ministry, but, they were not eternally indwelt.

2. Many have tasted of the good Word of God apart from salvation: every unbeliever who hears the Gospel and is ministered to by the Spirit can be said to have tasted.

3. In view is being brought back to repentance, not salvation. Big difference. And that in view are unregenerate Hebrews under Law is seen in that they "crucify Christ unto themselves again," which is accomplished by continuing to offer up sacrifice for sin, which was a picture of Christ dying on the Cross.

Finally, I will show you that the outcome has not been decided for these who are rebuked, and that is seen in the illustration the Writer gives:


7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:

8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.


What all men receive is the Gospel, and there are two outcomes: salvation or remaining under condemnation, which has an end of being burned, which is why he uses thorns and briers to describe the second group. In view are lost and saved, again, not good Christian/bad Christian as the L.O.S.T. (loss of salvation teachers) like to teach as they deny the merit of Christ's Work.

Both groups receive the same thing, just as the whole earth receives the same thing, but the outcome is quite different.

Take note as to how many pro-osas people ignore my comment about Rev 22:19. It is so obvious that they usually stay far away from it.

You are suffering delusions of grandeur. It is more likely many here have just gotten tired of talking to people who will not listen.



But I will be glad to help show you that Salvation in Christ is just as He taught it. Salvation is the immersion of the believer into God Himself, and there is nothing in Scripture where that is said to ever be reversed, but, is in fact our guarantee:


2 Corinthians 5:5
King James Version (KJV)

5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.


God bless.