OSAS does not survive the "Sola Scriptura test" in Matthew 18..etc

[Darrell C]

Before you continue, you do understand basic grammar rules where if there is a [ ] within a " ", it means that everything found within the [ ] is not part of the quote? Had I left out the [ ], you would be correct. Btw...Hebrews were written to Jews who converted to Christianity.

Doesn't matter, you added to the Word of God and must therefore be stricken from the Book of Life.

Sorry, your rules, not mine.

And according to your Soteriology, there is no hope for you.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Our Catholic friends frequently get presented with the problem of "tradition of man" vs "sola scriptura testing".

Well here is a topic where they might want to point that out.

Because OSAS does not surive the test of "Sola Scriptura"

So I guess what your really saying is that you have the same problem as the Catholic, since you both teach works-based salvation contrary to what Scripture teaches.

Right?


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Matthew 18 is specifically about forgiveness revoked.

32 Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him. 35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.”

Bob, you need to graduate to the New Covenant. You are stuck under the Law and cannot distinguish what is temporal and what is spiritual.

Remission of sins is not based on whether we forgive men or not, it is based on Christ dying to atone for the penalty our sin incurs.

And when God forgives us, it is permanent:


Hebrews 10:15-18
King James Version (KJV)

15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.


The men this promise was spoken to were in the same Age those you use to proof text your doctrine were...the Age of Law.

Christ ministered to men under the Law, and was under the Law Himself:


Galatians 4:3-5
King James Version (KJV)

3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:

4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.


See how Paul points out those two Ages, clearly distinguishing between them. See how He says Christ came to redeem those under the Law? So why would you want to put men back under the Law? That is what you do when you compare a temporal setting with the Remission of Sins God promised and gives to those He eternally redeems.

I have tried to point out to you before that men were not made sons of God until Pentecost, when Christ began to Baptize them with the Holy Ghost. John makes this clear:


John 1:11-13
King James Version (KJV)

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


When God forgives, it is forever, as it is written.


God bless.

 

[delizzle]

And according to your Soteriology, there is no hope for you.
God bless.

So are you therefore conceding that it is possible to lose your salvation? I think you are confused with what "the rules" are. The way I see it,

And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy [meaning the original autograph that no longer exists], God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll.
Revelation 22:19 NIV

So according to God's rule (not mine), falsifying an original autograph will cost you your salvation. However, unless someone finds John's original letter of Revelation and tampered with it, it is not possible to do. But that's not the point. The point is that regardless of the sin actually being possible, there are specific things mentioned in scripture that will cost you your salvation. Rev 22:19 is only one such example.

 

[Darrell C]

Btw...Hebrews were written to Jews who converted to Christianity.

By the way, there are three groups identified in Hebrews by most who understand the Book:

1. Christians;
2. Jews who were sitting on the fence;
3. Those who had rejected Christ, His Sacrifice, His Covenant, and the Spirit of Grace, Who is the Comforter.

And all of them were Jews.

That is why the illustration given are specific to Israel. For example, the Children of Israel in the Wilderness, rejecting God, and there dying because of their unbelief. Yet the L.O.S.T. (loss of salvation teachers) try to make this mean he is teaching Christians losing their salvation through unbelief.

That is pretty lame, seeing...not one of the Children of Israel were eternally redeemed. That would not take place until Christ died in their stead.

So too with Hebrews 6:4-6, they take men who are ignorant of Christ as taught in the Old Testament, and make them regenerate believers losing their salvation.

So too with Hebrews 10:26, they take men who reject Christ, and are compared with those who rejected the Law, and make them Christians losing their salvation.

We have to ask, why is it that we see such sloppy handing of the Word of God? I think the Writer gives us the answer:


Hebrews 5:10-12
King James Version (KJV)

10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.

11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.

12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.


He doesn't give up on them, though...


Hebrews 6:11-12
King James Version (KJV)

11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:

12 That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.


Note v.12 exhorts them they should follow those who through faith inherit the promises, and one of the things most of the L.O.S.T. are ignorant of is what those promises were, and when they were/are received.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

So are you therefore conceding that it is possible to lose your salvation?

No, just showing you the unfortunate result of your unfortunate Soteriology, lol.

You have added to the Word of God, therefore you have lost your salvation, and there is now no hope for you.

Pretty silly, isn't it?

That is how those of us who believe the Word of God view your doctrine...silly. It is contrary to the Word of God.

Now, explain what this...


Hebrews 10:14
King James Version (KJV)

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.


...means.

And before guessing, please read at least from v.1 of the Chapter.


Continued...

 

[delizzle]

By the way, there are three groups identified in Hebrews by most who understand the Book:

1. Christians;
2. Jews who were sitting on the fence;
3. Those who had rejected Christ, His Sacrifice, His Covenant, and the Spirit of Grace, Who is the Comforter.

And all of them were Jews.

That is why the illustration given are specific to Israel. For example, the Children of Israel in the Wilderness, rejecting God, and there dying because of their unbelief. Yet the L.O.S.T. (loss of salvation teachers) try to make this mean he is teaching Christians losing their salvation through unbelief.

That is pretty lame, seeing...not one of the Children of Israel were eternally redeemed. That would not take place until Christ died in their stead.

So too with Hebrews 6:4-6, they take men who are ignorant of Christ as taught in the Old Testament, and make them regenerate believers losing their salvation.

So too with Hebrews 10:26, they take men who reject Christ, and are compared with those who rejected the Law, and make them Christians losing their salvation.

We have to ask, why is it that we see such sloppy handing of the Word of God? I think the Writer gives us the answer:


Hebrews 5:10-12
King James Version (KJV)

10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.

11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.

12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.


He doesn't give up on them, though...


Hebrews 6:11-12
King James Version (KJV)

11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:

12 That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.


Note v.12 exhorts them they should follow those who through faith inherit the promises, and one of the things most of the L.O.S.T. are ignorant of is what those promises were, and when they were/are received.


God bless.

Are you ever going to address Rev 22:19 or are you going to continue chasing squirrels? Btw, according to the "rules" you assumed I was making, I would receive the plagues mentioned in the scroll, not lose my share of the tree of life. [emoji6]

 

[delizzle]

No, just showing you the unfortunate result of your unfortunate Soteriology, lol.

You have added to the Word of God, therefore you have lost your salvation, and there is now no hope for you.

I had no idea the John wrote Revelation on an online forum?

 

[Darrell C]

I think you are confused with what "the rules" are.

No, just amazed at the silliness of your back-pedaling.

The way I see it,

And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy [meaning the original autograph that no longer exists], God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll.
Revelation 22:19 NIV

It is indeed unfortunate that you "see" it that way, lol.

I am not sure if you are seriously suggesting that the warning applies only to the original document.

Seriously?

So according to God's rule (not mine), falsifying an original autograph will cost you your salvation.

Nothing in there about an original document.

The warning covers what is written within the document.

Just basic math, delizzle.

However, unless someone finds John's original letter of Revelation and tampered with it, it is not possible to do.

Seriously?

But that's not the point.

You're right, because even though you have added to the Word of God, if you are saved, then you have been eternally immersed into God, and His indwelling is your guarantee that He will finish the Work He has begun in you.

You did not do anything to save yourself, delizzle, nor is there anything you can do to maintain your salvation, unless you have the power to cast Christ out of you.

And before you think too hard on that my friend, let me assure you, you don't.

That is why Christ is called...


Hebrews 12:2
King James Version (KJV)

2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Stop looking unto delizzle: he is going to disappoint you.

The point is that regardless of the sin actually being possible, there are specific things mentioned in scripture that will cost you your salvation

Well, we've gone from your magic bullet making the "pro-osas" scared to address it to your magic bullet not actually being relevant if you are the one that is guilty of violating the principle.

Rev 22:19 is only one such example.

Revelation 22:19 does not nullify the many irrefutable statements of Eternal Security in Scripture. Sorry to disappoint you.

And just as you ignore the context of those wonderful passages of Hebrews, which teach Eternal Security, you fail to see the invitation given which qualifies the statement:


Revelation 22:17-19
King James Version (KJV)

17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.


The invitation is to the lost, my friend, and to the L.O.S.T. in particular. The "water of life" is the indwelling of the Spirit of God:


John 7:38-39
King James Version (KJV)

38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Now, an example of one adding and taking away from the Book would be Muhammad, who added a new Messiah and took away the One given in this Book.

So the L.O.S.T. need to take care, because when they teach, like you do, that this teaches a contradictory doctrine to the whole of Scripture (and it does), they border on violation of the warning given.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Btw, according to the "rules" you assumed I was making, I would receive the plagues mentioned in the scroll, not lose my share of the tree of life.

Think again. Of course your following the pattern of the L.O.S.T. (loss of salvation teachers) in only quoting what is convenient to your doctrine:

The fact is that what you added removes from what is contained in the Book:


Revelation 3:5
King James Version (KJV)

5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.


What you are "adding" is that in view are those who are saved, contrary to what the context actually means:


Revelation 22:17-19
King James Version (KJV)

17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.


It is an invitation to the lost, even as the Epistles to the Churches is an invitation...to salvation in Christ. Taking of the water of life.

Are you ever going to address Rev 22:19 or are you going to continue chasing squirrels?

Only one squirrel here...

If I wanted to catch you, I'd climb up a tree and act like a nut...

How is this...

Not even the NIV has "[implying that it was once given]."

All men are in the Book of Life from conception. All men have the opportunity to be saved and thus share in the Eternal State.

But the singular point of common sense I would direct you to is that men must be in the Book of Life in order to be blotted out. Here is Moses:


Exodus 32:32-33
King James Version (KJV)

32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.

33 And the Lord said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.


Here is David asking that the enemies of Christ be blotted out:


Psalm 69:22-28
King James Version (KJV)

22 Let their table become a snare before them: and that which should have been for their welfare, let it become a trap.

23 Let their eyes be darkened, that they see not; and make their loins continually to shake.

24 Pour out thine indignation upon them, and let thy wrathful anger take hold of them.

25 Let their habitation be desolate; and let none dwell in their tents.

26 For they persecute him whom thou hast smitten; and they talk to the grief of those whom thou hast wounded.

27 Add iniquity unto their iniquity: and let them not come into thy righteousness.

28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.


Here is David confirming his days in God's Book:


Psalm 139:15-16
King James Version (KJV)

15 My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.

16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.


And here is Christ promising that anyone that overcomes will never be blotted out:


Revelation 3:5
King James Version (KJV)

5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.


"Overcoming" is a euphemism for salvation. John defines how one overcomes:


1 John 5:1-5
King James Version (KJV)

1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?


And if you want to say "that doesn't count because it isn't the same Book," then I would suggest you read the Epistles to the Churches and see what they are told to do, and told not to do.

...not addressing your proof text?


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

I had no idea the John wrote Revelation on an online forum?

That makes about as much sense as the warning only being applicable to the original document.


God bless.

 

[delizzle]

No, just amazed at the silliness of your back-pedaling.




It is indeed unfortunate that you "see" it that way, lol.

I am not sure if you are seriously suggesting that the warning applies only to the original document.

Seriously?




Nothing in there about an original document.

The warning covers what is written within the document.

Just basic math, delizzle.




Seriously?




You're right, because even though you have added to the Word of God, if you are saved, then you have been eternally immersed into God, and His indwelling is your guarantee that He will finish the Work He has begun in you.

You did not do anything to save yourself, delizzle, nor is there anything you can do to maintain your salvation, unless you have the power to cast Christ out of you.

And before you think too hard on that my friend, let me assure you, you don't.

That is why Christ is called...


Hebrews 12:2
King James Version (KJV)

2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Stop looking unto delizzle: he is going to disappoint you.




Well, we've gone from your magic bullet making the "pro-osas" scared to address it to your magic bullet not actually being relevant if you are the one that is guilty of violating the principle.




Revelation 22:19 does not nullify the many irrefutable statements of Eternal Security in Scripture. Sorry to disappoint you.

And just as you ignore the context of those wonderful passages of Hebrews, which teach Eternal Security, you fail to see the invitation given which qualifies the statement:


Revelation 22:17-19
King James Version (KJV)

17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.


The invitation is to the lost, my friend, and to the L.O.S.T. in particular. The "water of life" is the indwelling of the Spirit of God:


John 7:38-39
King James Version (KJV)

38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Now, an example of one adding and taking away from the Book would be Muhammad, who added a new Messiah and took away the One given in this Book.

So the L.O.S.T. need to take care, because when they teach, like you do, that this teaches a contradictory doctrine to the whole of Scripture (and it does), they border on violation of the warning given.


God bless.

Ok, assuming for a moment that you are correct and that my salvation is now lost for adding a clarification remark to a quote, are you going to admit that OSAS is false or are you going to continue pretending that Rev 22:19 doesn't exist? Why don't you then explain why such a blatant warning exists?

Disregard, I just read post #30.

 

[Darrell C]

Ok, assuming for a moment that you are correct and that my salvation is now lost for adding a clarification remark to a quote,

If you are saved (unlike you I am not into assuming...), your ignorance won't lose it for you.

And I would suggest you should spend a little more time in the Word of God than in trying to proof text what you want to believe.

are you going to admit that OSAS is false

Why would I do that?

Eternal Security is just a basic principle of Salvation in Christ.

Now, as I asked, explain this statement...


Hebrews 10:14 King James Version (KJV)

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.


This is the clearest and most irrefutable statement of Eternal Security in all of Scripture. I already know you don't know what it means because if you did, you would not be preaching false doctrine.

Now explain what it means, delizzle.

or are you going to continue pretending that Rev 22:19 doesn't exist?

I've addressed it several times now. Time for you to address one of my own.

Why don't you then explain why such a blatant warning exists?

Pretty obvious, isn't it?

An invitation is given to salvation, and a warning not to add or take away.

It's kind of like there being no sacrifice remaining when one rejects the One Sacrifice they can be saved by.


God bless.

 

[delizzle]

If you are saved (unlike you I am not into assuming...), your ignorance won't lose it for you.

And I would suggest you should spend a little more time in the Word of God than in trying to proof text what you want to believe.




Why would I do that?

Eternal Security is just a basic principle of Salvation in Christ.

Now, as I asked, explain this statement...


Hebrews 10:14 King James Version (KJV)

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.


This is the clearest and most irrefutable statement of Eternal Security in all of Scripture. I already know you don't know what it means because if you did, you would not be preaching false doctrine.

Now explain what it means, delizzle.




I've addressed it several times now. Time for you to address one of my own.




Pretty obvious, isn't it?

An invitation is given to salvation, and a warning not to add or take away.

It's kind of like there being no sacrifice remaining when one rejects the One Sacrifice they can be saved by.


God bless.

In regards to Rev 22:19, here is a quote from an IVP commentary:

"The warning stands in the tradition of Moses’ speeches to the people of Israel (Deut 4:2, “Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it, but keep the commands of the Lord your God that I give you”; see also Deut 12:32). Like the warnings of Moses, this warning is directed “to the hearer … before whom the book is read in the congregation, not to a copyist” (Beckwith 1922:778–79). Robert Mounce agrees: “It is addressed not to future scribes who might be tempted to tamper with the text (nor to textual critics who must decide between shorter and longer variants!) but to ‘every man that heareth,’ that is, to members of the seven churches of Asia where the book was to be read aloud. The warning is against willful distortion of the message” (1977:395). Jesus goes beyond Moses by invoking a stern sanction heightened by a play on words: if anyone adds anything to the Revelation, God will add to that person the plagues described in this book, not only the “three plagues” of 9:18 or the “seven last plagues” of 15:1, but all the plagues. If anyone takes away anything, God will take away that person’s share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book (vv. 18–19)*. The closest New Testament parallel to Jesus’ grim play on words here is the sanction attached to his own commands in the Sermon on the Mount: whoever breaks one of the least of “these commandments” and teaches others to do so will be called least in “the kingdom of heaven” (Mt 5:19). The warning in Matthew appears to be a deliberate understatement, the real point being that “unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven” (Mt 5:20). This one at the end of Revelation is less subtle and even harsher. It amounts virtually to a curse."

In regards to Hebrews 10:14, here is a quote from the same commentary:

"Second, his sacrifice was so efficacious that it guaranteed the final perfection of all those who were being made holy. This involved not only the regeneration of the spirit and the salvation of the soul, but also, the resurrection of the body of each true believer. The little-understood term sanctified of the KJV has been properly replaced in the NIV by the words being made holy. It is both an accomplished fact (10:10) and a continuing process (10:14), a phenomenon found frequently in Scripture. We may not understand such a mystery, but we can revel in its reality, as the writer intends us to do. All progress in the spiritual life comes from personally apprehending a fact that is already true. To put it simply, we must see what we already are by God’s grace, in order to manifest that fact by godly behavior."

So could you please show me where I deviated from these two passages? Losing your salvation is possible, yet the conditions no longer exist. Thus making it impossible. The only exception is unbelief. Apostates are not saved. The question then becomes, where they ever saved to begin with?

 

[Yeshua1]

Theres about 150+ verses against OSAS.

Have fun.

If only Person who stated it as being true was Jesus Himself, which he did, as ALL who the Father gave to Him will ALL be raised up, that is the only verse that we need!

 

[Yeshua1]

Our Catholic friends frequently get presented with the problem of "tradition of man" vs "sola scriptura testing".

Well here is a topic where they might want to point that out.

Because OSAS does not surive the test of "Sola Scriptura"


Matthew 18 is specifically about forgiveness revoked.

32 Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him. 35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.”

Indeed -- Christ shows us the "fully forgiven" about whom it is said "I forgave you ALL" and yet due to subsequent actions of the "fully forgiven" -- they experience forgiveness revoked. until he should pay all that was due

Question for the reader -- In your POV is there such a thing as "Salvation where you pay your own debt of sin" -- having been "forgiven all" he then had to "repay all".. OR is Christ simply mistaken in your POV?

OSAS does not survive the sola-scriptura test in Matthew 18 nor in Romans 11 nor in Ezekiel 18 (nor even Matthew 6)

Romans 11
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Whin sin is greater than the shed blood of Jesus to cover? Whose has the power to separate from the love of God in Christ, and to break the seal of the Holy Spirit then?

 

[delizzle]

Whin sin is greater than the shed blood of Jesus to cover? Whose has the power to separate from the love of God in Christ, and to break the seal of the Holy Spirit then?

Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit

 

[Darrell C]

In regards to Rev 22:19, here is a quote from an IVP commentary:

"The warning stands in the tradition of Moses’ speeches to the people of Israel (Deut 4:2, “Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it, but keep the commands of the Lord your God that I give you”; see also Deut 12:32). Like the warnings of Moses, this warning is directed “to the hearer … before whom the book is read in the congregation, not to a copyist” (Beckwith 1922:778–79). Robert Mounce agrees: “It is addressed not to future scribes who might be tempted to tamper with the text (nor to textual critics who must decide between shorter and longer variants!) but to ‘every man that heareth,’ that is, to members of the seven churches of Asia where the book was to be read aloud. The warning is against willful distortion of the message” (1977:395). Jesus goes beyond Moses by invoking a stern sanction heightened by a play on words: if anyone adds anything to the Revelation, God will add to that person the plagues described in this book, not only the “three plagues” of 9:18 or the “seven last plagues” of 15:1, but all the plagues. If anyone takes away anything, God will take away that person’s share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book (vv. 18–19)*. The closest New Testament parallel to Jesus’ grim play on words here is the sanction attached to his own commands in the Sermon on the Mount: whoever breaks one of the least of “these commandments” and teaches others to do so will be called least in “the kingdom of heaven” (Mt 5:19). The warning in Matthew appears to be a deliberate understatement, the real point being that “unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven” (Mt 5:20). This one at the end of Revelation is less subtle and even harsher. It amounts virtually to a curse."

There is a mingling of concepts here that in my view does more to confuse someone reading this than to help them.

For example, they refer to one "not entering the Kingdom," when we have to take into consideration that the only Kingdom truly understood to those Christ taught was the promised Restored Kingdom, which would have a son of David as it's King. Christ taught that except a man be born again he cannot enter the Kingdom, and this is true in regards to the Millennial Kingdom, because all unbelievers are destroyed in the Sheep and Goat judgment of Matthew 25.

I agree the warning is against wilful distortion, but, again, I would suggest that the invitation must be carefully considered in the statement. Just as with all of the L.O.S.T. (loss of salvation teachings), who is being spoken to is very important. 2 Peter 2 is often used as a L.O.S.T. but the very first verse shows in view is the New Testament equivalent to the Old Testament false prophet, to whom no one in their right mind would ascribe relationship with God.

The best I can say for this is at least they designate a general audience without inference of salvation.

And I would also ask that you give your understanding, rather than quote others. What is important is not what you can read, delizzle, but what you actually understand from the Word of God. God will teach you better than commentaries will.

In regards to Hebrews 10:14, here is a quote from the same commentary:

"Second, his sacrifice was so efficacious that it guaranteed the final perfection of all those who were being made holy. This involved not only the regeneration of the spirit and the salvation of the soul, but also, the resurrection of the body of each true believer. The little-understood term sanctified of the KJV has been properly replaced in the NIV by the words being made holy. It is both an accomplished fact (10:10) and a continuing process (10:14), a phenomenon found frequently in Scripture. We may not understand such a mystery, but we can revel in its reality, as the writer intends us to do. All progress in the spiritual life comes from personally apprehending a fact that is already true. To put it simply, we must see what we already are by God’s grace, in order to manifest that fact by godly behavior."

The primary issue I would take is that they do not...explain what it means to be perfect.

That is the primary thrust of the statement.

They also impose into the text that which is not there, because there is nothing in Hebrews 10 dealing with Regeneration.

Third, they limit "sanctification" to "being made holy" when it also connotes being separated unto Someone or something. Most people think "being made holy" means one is made righteous, and depending on their understanding of righteousness they may go so far as to view that righteousness as something they produce.

They do good to point out that Scripture teaches both Progressive Sanctification as well as Positional, yet they confuse the context and imply that Progressive Sanctification is in view here. It is not.

That is why I said you should back up to v.1 and read from there at least. I still want you to do that, delizzle, because I think you can, if you simply read the passage, understand what he means when he says "For by one offering He hath made perfect them that are sanctified."

Best to look at the Greek on the key words, but, even if one does not, the context still makes it clear what it means to be made perfect forever, which, as I said, is the clearest statement of Eternal Security you will find in Scripture.

So could you please show me where I deviated from these two passages? Losing your salvation is possible, yet the conditions no longer exist. Thus making it impossible. The only exception is unbelief. Apostates are not saved. The question then becomes, where they ever saved to begin with?

Losing salvation is not possible, my friend.

In every proof text you have you are going to be seen as making those clearly identified as unbelievers (as we see in Revelation 22, because they are invited to partake of the water of life, meaning they do not have it). I have shown you that in regards to Hebrews 10:26 and Hebrews 6. Whether you accept that or not is up to you, but, you are going to have to show why the points raised are unreasonable.

There are only two types of people in the world, those separated from God, and those in relationship with Him through His eternal Indwelling. Those who are lost, and those who are saved. Those who are spiritual, and those who are natural.

Now, just do me the favor of reading Hebrews 10:1-14, and I want you to read it apart from commentaries, because while commentaries can be helpful, they can, and usually do, impose a bias into the Student. It might be likened to me stopping by your house when you aren't home, and seeing your phone laying out in the yard, and I run into you and tell you about it. You go home, and you look in the spot I said it was, and you overlook the fact that your PC is ten yards away as well. But you weren't looking for the PC, just what I told you should look for.

The context of Hebrews 10 is really very simple, but, you have to familiarize yourself with it to understand it. Once you do, you will see several irrefutable statements of Eternal Security, rather than the L.O.S.T. (loss of salvation teachings) because they are yanked out of the context.

Here is another:


Hebrews 10:15-18
King James Version (KJV)

15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.


Remission of sins in completion is what God promised Israel in regards to the promise of the New Covenant. The writer makes the same statement here (there is no more offering for sin) that he makes in v.26, but...the context is different. And what this means is that when we have been inducted into New Covenant relationship and have received those promises, there is no need for further sacrifice, because as Hebrews 10:10 and 14 state, we are "sanctified by the Blood of Christ once, and by that One Offering we have been made perfect forever."

So read Hebrews 10:1-14, I am confident God will show what this means, and why you can trust Christ explicitly.

And I am about out of time, so if I don't get to any more today I will get to it at the next appointed time.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Theres about 150+ verses against OSAS.

Have fun.

There isn't the first verse denying Eternal Security.

You present your proof texts, and...

...then I can have some fun.




God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

And of course Jesus "could" have concluded with "so each one of you should forgive others because that is my command to you" -- would have fit perfectly with your suggestion that the rest of the details are to be ignored since it is a parable.

Instead of that Jesus appeals to the "very detail" in that parable that the OSAS people would argue 'is the most untrue about it"... "so shall My Father do to each one of you IF ..." hard to skim over that.

Very similar to the Sabbath commandment in Exodus 20 for the theistic evolutionist. Vs 11 appeals to "the very detail that is the most untrue" (in their minds) about the Genesis account and the statement in Genesis 2:1-3.

Pretty sobering thought for someone married to the idea of "sola scriptura" testing of all tradition and doctrine.

His point is that in view is a temporal context dealing with men forgiving other men, which, if you want to say is a means of salvation, then go right ahead.

I'd like to see that public statement.


God bless.