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Perfection And the New Birth
- Thread starter Darrell C
- Start date
...are found is about to close, so, in order that I might address them, I am carrying them into this new thread.
Anyone is welcome to address either Perfection or the New Birth.
I will start this thread by saying that One Baptism errs in this statement:
See you in the next appointed time.
God bless.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
IF any error at all was made -- it was made by you in that case.
2 Peter 1:9
9 But whoever does not have them is nearsighted and blind, forgetting that they have been cleansed from their past sins.
When you point at the exact statement in scripture and say "error"... you have your first clue that your doctrine is in error
Wrong again, Bob. You have not provided the actual Scripture used to make the statement.
Let me help you with that:
One Baptism) Hebrews 10:18 KJB - Now where remission of these is said:
Now let's expand the text you erroneously tie to my charge of error...
2 Peter 1:5-10
King James Version (KJV)
5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
The point is...make sure you are actually saved.
And if you actually had the right Scripture you might have something to say. As it is, you don't.
So I will get to the error which, hopefully, will help you to understand this...
Hebrews 10:14
King James Version (KJV)
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
...and you will stop embarrassing yourself in regards to the contrary doctrine you teach. Or I should say...try to teach.
God bless.
[QUOTE="One Baptism, post: 2399870, member: 12359"
You should know by now, you don't have to try hard to get an answer from me.
In view is the filling of the Spirit, which is the Old Testament Ministry of God in the lives and hearts of men.
Acts 7:51
King James Version (KJV)
51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
Apparently you are unaware of this distinction as taught by Christ, and I have already given you several texts which show this is the case.
Here they are again:
Acts 1:4-5
King James Version (KJV)
4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
Now, that being baptized with the Holy Ghost is a result of the Gospel preached and the indwelling of the Holy Ghost taking place, and that this is the moment of New Covenant Salvation in Christ...
...is made clear in Peter's commentary when he defines the salvation of Cornelius and his household:
Acts 11:12-18
King James Version (KJV)
12 And the Spirit bade me go with them, nothing doubting. Moreover these six brethren accompanied me, and we entered into the man's house:
13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;
14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.
15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
Now, Christ states the Disciples heard teaching of the Promised Spirit from Himself, so lets look at those now:
John 14:15-18
King James Version (KJV)
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
John 14:22-23
King James Version (KJV)
22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
Now, the "words" which saved Cornelius and his household is the Gospel of Jesus Christ, which is the Mystery revealed to the disciples at Pentecost, which is the beginning Peter speaks of, not Creation. And the "words" which the disciples failed to keep was first and foremost the Gospel we see Peter rejecting here:
Matthew 16:20-23
King James Version (KJV)
20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.
21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.
23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
Just like Nicodemus, the revelation provided to men prior to Pentecost did not reveal the reality of the Messiah, Who He was, what He would do. The disciples were enlightened to the fact that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of the Living God, but, that didn't change the fact that they still, like Nicodemus, looked for a physical Kingdom as God had promised.
You can see that here...
Acts 1:4-7
King James Version (KJV)
4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
It will happen, but it did not happen then. Not many days hence they would forget about an earthly Kingdom and concentrate on the Kingdom which Christ established...
Colossians 1:13-14
King James Version (KJV)
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
So the idea of "forgiveness revoked" is not only unbiblical, it is contrary to the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and that is no surprise when it comes from men seeking to bring men under the Yoke of the Law. Troubling, soul subverting men, that is how Scripture describes them.
No.
As I told you, Scripture teaches that no man was born again until Christ came, died, resurrected, returned to Heaven, and sent the Promised Spirit.
And it is the Spirit Who, in His capacity of Comforter which is a new Ministry among men, reveals the Mystery of the Gospel of Christ.
And only Scripture can teach that. The systems and doctrines of men only pervert it.
God bless.
As promised, I will address the numerous errors of this member.
First, he imposes into the text something that is not there, which is actually directly opposite of what is there: he states that the Remission of sins in view is for past sins.
Lets look at the text:
Hebrews 10:1-4
King James Version (KJV)
10 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
First, Scripture defines perfection as first something that the Law and its sacrifices could not do (v.1), and secondly, being made perfect/complete has direct application to taking away sins. The reason the sacrifices did not cease to be offered is because they could not take away sins.
So what this member has missed when he states...
...is that the sacrifices of the Law...were for the sins committed in the past. So that is obviously not the context.
Again, this statement is not found in Chapter Ten, so this member eisegetically imposes it to create support for his primary thrust in this post, that men should keep the Sabbath.
That is how he teaches salvation, because the Sacrifice of Christ was for sins committed in the past, but, you had better keep the Law or else:
That is the memorial of cults, the Memorial of Christ's Offering of Himself is Communion:
Luke 22:19
King James Version (KJV)
19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.
But let's go on in the text, because we are going to see more deception, or ignorance (God knows), as he sets out to bring men under the bondage and yoke of the Law, which Peter declared not even the "fathers" were able to keep.
Continued...
Hebrews 10:10-14
King James Version (KJV)
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
First, "for all" is an insertion, it is not in the original language.
Secondly, the "will" in view is God's will for Christ to offer Himself up, that is why he writes "by the which will," which is what our intervening texts state.
That we are sanctified, made holy unto God, set apart unto God, takes place once. It isn't saying "Once we were sanctified (implying a past action)," it states clearly, and the context bears this out, that we are sanctified...once.
We again see His Sacrifice contrasted with the sacrifices of the Law, and again, the point is made that they could not take away sins, and this emphatically, can never take away sins:
11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
As he asks in v.2, "Would they not have ceased if they could take away sins?
Starting to get the idea? The "taking away" of sins is pretty important to what the writer conveys?
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for for sins, for ever sat down on the right hand of God;
13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
The word "ever" is the same word in v.1, translated "continually, so we see a direct contrast to the sacrifices of Law being offered continually, and the One Offering of Christ said to be offered for sins, for ever. That He sat down, contrasted with the Priests standing daily, and offering up daily sacrifices (oftentimes the same sacrifices)...
...shows a finality and a completed action, which is the precise meaning of the word perfected.
It means to bring to an end.
How simple is that? Yet this member imposes into what is blatantly clear in the text...
No, my friend, Christ took away sins...forever.
And in view is the penalty, because those animals took upon them the deaths that the sinner should have died.
Christ took upon Him the death that we should die.
And his heart is revealed as we work our way through this post, because his intention is to proclaim Law keeping for salvation. That is why he has to ignore the context of this chapter and wrest it to cater to his false doctrine.
Its very simple: "The Law could never, with those sacrifices make the comer thereunto, the worshiper, perfect/complete in regards to remission of sins (for this is why those sacrifices were offered), but...
...the Sacrifice of Christ makes complete forever those who are sanctified (seen in the text to be Positional Sanctification, because it is done once). They have been made complete forever in regards to remission of sins.
That is why there is no more offering for sin:
Hebrews 10:15-18
King James Version (KJV)
15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
The Judaizer must gnash his teeth to see his religion dispelled by the Sacrifice of Christ. But that has been going on for two millennia now, in many various groups and cults.
Here is what this member thinks of the Sacrifice of Christ:
Continued...
And the question we ask is what does it mean when Paul speaks of the remission of sins that are past.
Well, let's let the Writer of Hebrews (who was probably Paul, though we cannot be dogmatic):
Hebrews 9:12-15
King James Version (KJV)
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Because this member has no idea what it is that Hebrews is actually teaching, because he seeks to make it conform to the doctrines of men he has embraced, he does not understand that in view is the redemption of the sins that were under the Law. We can impose that into the context of Hebrews Ten, because the writer does so.
Again we see the blood of bulls and goats and calves, or in other words, the sacrifices of the Law, contrasted with the Sacrifice of Christ. They did not make perfect/complete, and they did not obtain eternal redemption for those who were under Law. By His Own Blood (His death) He entered into the Holy Place (defined in this Chapter as Heaven itself)...having obtained eternal redemption for us.
And that is a point that most I speak with reject. They simply cannot fathom that the Old Testament Saints died apart from eternal redemption, but...that is precisely what is said here.
The sacrifices of the Law sanctified to the purifying of the flesh, or in other words...it was temporal and physical, which is made obvious in Chapter Ten because we see they had to be continually offered.
A few points to consider and we will move on:
1. The Law did not provide Eternal Redemption;
2. The Law could not provide completion in regards to Remission of sins;
3. Christ is the Mediator of the New Covenant;
4. His Sacrifice redeemed the transgression which were under the Law;
5. Those under Law had not received the Promise of Eternal Inheritance.
So we ask, why is it men seek to be under the Law again? What is particularly humorous is that they cannot keep the Law, because offering for sin was part and parcel with the Law. You can't have the Law bringing conviction and no sacrifice for that sin. And you can't appeal to Christ's Sacrifice because the Writer of Hebrews makes it clear they are two separate Covenants. But isn't that what we see often? People merging and blending the Two Covenants and creating their own little religion? And sometimes...not so little?
Going back to his proof text:
We have seen that Christ's Sacrifice makes those sanctified by His Sacrifice perfect/complete forever in regards to remission of sins, but what about those who died under the Law? Who would have had animal sacrifice offered for remission of sins prior to their deaths?
No problem, the Writer points that out:
Hebrews 11:39-40
King James Version (KJV)
39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
Being made perfect is directly tied to the promise of God, which is seen in the promise of the New Covenant, "17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more,18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin. Hebrews 10:17-18)."
They are referred to here:
Hebrews 12:22-24
King James Version (KJV)
22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
The Old Testament Saints were justified by grace through faith, like as we, however, they were not made perfect in regards to remission of sins, and they were not...
Romans 3:20-25
King James Version (KJV)
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
...justified through the Redemption which is in Christ Jesus.
So going back to this member's statement...
...not only does he inappropriately apply remission of the sins which were past (applying that to those sanctified once by Christ's Sacrifice, instead of to those who were under Law and not made perfect, and needed to be through Christ), he completely misses the finality of sins being remembered through the Promise of GOd.
Again, the reason why what the text teaches is either ignored or not known is that his religious doctrine might be taught...instead.
Continued...
It's a false argument: nobody would reasonably argue that Scripture teaches it is okay to sin since we have received eternal remission of sins.
Most people who hold to false doctrine are forced to do this (create false arguments). They cannot directly address the actual doctrine, in part, and particularly in whole.
This is damnable demon doctrine.
Hebrews 10 teaches the exact opposite. "Etc." is given because they cannot present a suitable Biblical presentation to affirm their doctrine.
Let me be clear, to this member and to all who teach such damnable doctrine...
...you are denying the Sacrifice of Christ.
Continued...
Doesn't even make sense.
If sins have been forgiven...they are blotted out.
This does not represent the God of the Bible, it represents a god and christ of their own devising. And that is the best definition for a cult: they improperly understand and teach Christ.
The Christ of the Bible died that men, Old and New Testament...might be made perfect in regards to remission of sins forever.
Revelation 14:6-7
King James Version (KJV)
6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
Acts 3:19
King James Version (KJV)
19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.
So, this member is awaiting the "anti-typical Day of Atonement?"
I wonder if he actually knows what he is saying, or, if he is simply quoting Scripture references from the resources available through his religion.
The Day of Atonement which was not the type is known to all Christians, and we do not await that...it has already taken place.
That is the Cross of Christ.
Continued...
"Thus" nothing.
You do not believe that His Sacrifice was "all that was needed."
You have incorrectly made the Cross of Christ insufficient to take away sins, and have taught that His Sacrifice was to bring people back to the Law:
There is no more sacrifice because what His Sacrifice did was make those of us sanctified by that Sacrifice complete forever in regards to remission of sins.
This is the doctrine of demons.
Sheesh.
Hate to be the one to tell you, but the "prince who is to come" is not Christ...it is the Antichrist.
Your error has no bounds, apparently. Do you really think Christians destroy the Holy City and the Sanctuary?
No, this...
Acts 15:24-29
King James Version (KJV)
24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
26 Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.
28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
...negates "obedience to the Law."
That is the entire point of this conclusion.
Continued...
No-one teaches license to sin.
Again, this is a false argument, which is all you have, because you cannot directly address Eternal Security.
Whether you understand how contrary your commentary on Hebrews 10, it is pretty clear to anyone who bothers to read it.
No, that is not "continually ongoing," it is...for ever.
The sacrifices of the Law were continually ongoing, a meaning of everlasting simply would not fit the context.
Its pretty simple, They were continually offered, and the priests stood daily offering for sin, oftentimes the the same sacrifices.
The Sacrifice of Christ makes complete forever in regards to remission of sins those who were sanctified once, which is contrasted, again, with the ongoing efforts of the Law.
Oh, so it is the "power of God" as long as we continue to believe? So we maintain our salvation by continuing to believe? You will probably deny that, but that is the implication of what you say here. You are trying to say we were "once" sanctified...but we might become not sanctified?
Damnable demon doctrine.
This too is pretty simple to understand. You make this speaking of Christians, but, if you would get out of your commentaries and let God instruct you in His Word, you might see that in view are those who reject...
Hebrews 10:28-29
King James Version (KJV)
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
In view is a contrast between those who rejected "Moses' Law" and those who reject...
1. Jesus Christ the Son of God;
2. His Sacrifice;
3. His Covenant;
4. ...and the Ministry of the Comforter, the Spirit of Grace and Truth.
It's not comparing good Christians and bad Christians, its comparing the judgment of the rejecters of both Covenants.
But that won't fit with what you want to teach, will it, so you must make Scripture conform to the doctrines of men which you have embraced.
Continued...
What ineffable twaddle.
The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the power of God unto salvation, to the Jew first, and to the Greek (Gentile)
God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself, and this through the Cross.
Reconciliation results in the immersion of the believer into God, in eternal union, which is the indwelling of God which guarantees our salvation:
Ephesians 1:13-14
King James Version (KJV)
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
2 Corinthians 1:21-22
King James Version (KJV)
21 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;
22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
2 Corinthians 5:4-5
King James Version (KJV)
4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
"Christ's Sacrifice sets the Christian on the path of works."
That is what you are saying, and this denies the Cross of Christ.
"Christians are to be "eternally...doing."
And there it is: keeping the Law. Keeping the Sabbath.
"They lost their salvation because they did not keep the Sabbath."
Damnable Demon Doctrine.
How would you picture them exhorting one another? "Hey, Saturday is coming...make sure you are in your place!"
Those who forsook the assembling of the brethren are the same rejecters of v.29. They had rejected Christ, His Sacrifice, His Covenant, and the efforts of the Comforter, and the one thing you need to understand is...
...they rejected Him in favor of the Law.
Continued...
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Completely missing the fact that they turned from the Holy Commandment. They didn't embrace it, then turn...they just turned from it:
2 Peter 2:20-22
King James Version (KJV)
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
The Comforter enlightens the natural mind, the unbeliever, the lost person...to the truth. The one factor the L.O.S.T. (loss of salvation teachers) need to recognize is that this does not mean regeneration has taken place. The dog is still a dog, the pig is still a pig, there has been no conversion for these false teachers destined for Hell.
Again, they are compared to the false prophet of the Old Testament:
2 Peter 2:1
King James Version (KJV)
1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
Do you see the false prophets of the Old Testament...as Saints?
You need to pay attention to the contrasts drawn, this one, and that in Hebrews 10:28-29, that will help you understand what he is saying better.
Sounds very nice, but this Creation will pass out of existence, so it too is temporary.
Salvation is...for ever.
And it always amazes me that you guys can be so blatantly in opposition to the Word of God:
Colossians 2:16
King James Version (KJV)
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
No, Jesus did not lay "resting in the tomb." He went and preached His victory:
1 Peter 3:18-19
King James Version (KJV)
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
Ephesians 4
King James Version (KJV)
8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
Hebrews 9:24
King James Version (KJV)
24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
Soul Sleep is another damnable doctrine of demons, based on a secular understanding of what a "soul" is.
So the Sabbath is the Rest of Christ?
Hebrews 4:10
King James Version (KJV)
10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
And here you are trying to teach men to obey the Sabbath, because you teach that Christ died to bring men back under the Law.
Damnable demon doctrine which completely perverts the Gospel of Christ.
Hate to break it to you, but men "believe," not because they intellectually understand, but because they acknowledge the truth shown them by the Comforter.
Keeping the Sabbath does not in way, shape, or form...prove one believes in the Sacrifice of Christ.
I assume you keep the Sabbath, and you have thoroughly perverted Who Christ is, what His Sacrifice was, and what it accomplished.
So let's get it straight next time, and simply speak your doctrine plainly, which is you believe the SAcrifice of Christ sets one on a path of works, which if they keep the Law and observe the Sabbath they will eventually be saved.
But if they don't...they will lose, not salvation, but become unsanctified.
What ineffable twaddle.
And there it is: "The way out of condemnation is...the Law."
Damnable demon doctrine.
Read your Bible, God will help you sort out your confusion, one verse at a time.
God bless.
What sin causes a true believer in jesus forfeit eternal life?
Now lets see how Regeneration is viewed:
A little hint: "trees" are used by Christ in His teachings concerning men prior to Salvation in Him, before men were able to believe on Him in His capacity as Savior. BEfore men became...
...branches in the True Vine.
Here, and you can correct me if I am wrong, you are suggesting that new birth is, again, a "starting point" for believers. And you are warning men to bear fruit.
Can I show you one obvious fact about the branches in the True Vine?
John 15
King James Version (KJV)
1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
The primary point I will suggest to you, OB, is that in view is an exhortation to something that isn't possible for the Disciples at this time, which is to abide in Christ. Note v.4, and realize that in view the Lord is building on the teaching of John 14, where He teaches that in a future day the disciples would be eternally indwelt...by the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. This will take place when the Comforter comes.
Again, the disciples are not in Christ at this point, and will not be until Christ returns to Heaven and sends the Comforter. It is them that He will begin to Baptize with the Holy Ghost. Remember Matthew 3:11-12? John prophesied One to come Who would baptize with the Holy Ghost and with Fire? Note v.6, we see what will happen to those who do not abide.
"The True Vine" would relate to Israel, Jews, in this manner: Israel was the vine taken out of Egypt and planted by God. That "vine" represented relationship to God, and His provision for them, even as the "Tree" of Romans 11 does. When Christ tells the disciples "I am the True Vine," what He is saying is "I AM the true means of relationship with God, and when the time comes...abide in me."
And just as men were told they must be born again, and believe on Christ, no man did. Not even the Disciples, as shown you before. So too, the Disciples would not "abide" until they were in Christ, and that would be the commandment in view.
Another obvious fact He teaches is that those who abide in Him will not fail to bear fruit, so no sense in warning men they must. All of us will go through the pruning process, but all of us will...bear fruit (v.5).
This is specific to Israel, for Christ was sent unto the Lost Sheep of Israel only, as He makes clear. The decision to abide, or not to abide, would present itself to the Nation when God would no longer be in relationship to Israel through the Covenant of Law, but through Christ, and this with all families of the earth, as promised numerous times in the Old Testament. I really do not need to quote the Scripture where we see the Disciples scattered, Peter even going so far to deny vehenetly he did not know Christ.
Not really what we would call abiding, is it?
Continued...
First problem:
Mark 4:13-20 King James Version (KJV)
13 And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?
14 The sower soweth the word.
15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.
16 And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness;
17 And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended.
18 And these are they which are sown among thorns; such as hear the word,
19 And the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful.
20 And these are they which are sown on good ground; such as hear the word, and receive it, and bring forth fruit, some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some an hundred.
The "seed" is not Christ, it is the Word of God.
Not sure where you get "the winds and showers of the Holy Ghost," but, like Hebrews 6 teaches the Word of God is given out like the rain, it falls on the entire earth, yet with entirely different outcomes. That is pretty obvious in the teaching.
And according to Scripture, contrary to your teaching, and just as we see in John 15 for those who abide...the Word sown on good ground does not fail to produce fruit.
Yet you have the good ground failing to produce fruit, and worse...you imply that men are in control of this.
The second problem you have is mixing the teachings. They are two entirely different teachings, so when you try to equate the seed in the first with the tree in the second, you greatly err:
No, it doesn't become "like the other seed," because in the first parable we see that the good ground remains good ground and doesn't fail to produce fruit (in varying degrees).
Every time a reference to being cast into the fire is made, it is a reference to Eternal Judgment, and there is always a contrast with those who are gathered, who are of course those who are saved.
None of these represent the saved.
Remember, it is the ministry of the Holy Ghost which allows the natural mind to understand the spiritual things of GOd, and in this context we have an entire nation that was willing to "believe" for a time, even to the point of glorifying Christ and throwing down palm branches.
But how many of them believed unto the saving of the soul?
Not the first one, not even from among the disciples, who would have to be rebuked by the Lord after He arose from the dead...because they did not believe He had, which means they did not believe Him when He told them He would.
Get the picture?
Continued...