Featured When will the Rapture/Resurrection occur?

It has been 2000 years. Statistically, I will likely die of old age before seeing either the Rapture or Great Tribulation (whatever the order).

How does eschatology impact soteriology?
Is a pre-trib God more or less monergistic than a post-trib God?


FYI: There is no "the Antichrist" in scripture, there are only "antichrist".

[1John 2:18, 22 NASB] 18 Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour. ... 22 Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son.
[1John 4:3 NASB] 3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world.
[2John 1:7 NASB] 7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist.​

There is also a "man of lawlessness":

[2Th 2:3 NASB] 3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,​

So this great 'boogie man' of human eschatological timelines seems far less well defined in scripture than I am led to believe in on-line conversations.


How does this fit in:
Matthew 24:29-35

29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from [fn]the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

32 “Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near; 33 so, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. 34 Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.​

Are there 2000+ year old people wandering around, or were the Amillenialists correct?
Even the generation that saw the rebirth of Israel as a nation are getting long in the tooth (if they were "this generation").

Please don't tell me to just read Revelation a few times because it is all simple. Simple it ain't.

 

I think that if one follows thru all of the Parousia sayings of the NT, would seem that the Second and Rapture are the same event!

 

Lots of Amilennialists, I guess.

 

I think all are raised on the actual LAST DAY....after which there are no more days, but the eternal state.

 

The scriptures do not address a last day of human history. All discussion of "the end", last days, end of the age, and the like, etc. etc. are references to the end of the Old Covenant theocracy (state and temple, or, to be biblical "Heaven and Earth").

 

Jesus did mention the last day 3x in Jn6.
While the ot.theocracy did end...it was spoken of as the end of the age, not the last day.
The last day...is the last day.

 

There is a lot of reason to think the last day (the eschaton) is the last day of the OT theocratic system --- since all eschatological language and allusions are obviously or plausibly to that.

As far as I can see, the biblical text is silent about the future of the globe we call Planet Earth, our Solar System and such.

 

There is yet a Great tribulation period, return of Jesus, Millennium , and a Future Eternal state mentioned...

 

I would respond to that, but those topics make excellent threads on thier own, and this thread has gone a bit far afield already on several replies.

 

Please give a Scriptural presentation for this.


God bless.

 

That very well might be true.

Relevance?

First and foremost, there is a difference between people who live knowing that Christ could return for them at any given moment, so we see a practical application in how we live, as well as how we view Scripture. If one believes that Prophecy is symbolic, and has already been fulfilled, or will be fulfilled in ways not intrusive to daily living, they tend to be less motivated. We see this in your first statement, "Big deal, I will probably be dead before the Rapture even takes place."

Secondly, we see even in your own post here that because you deny a literal aspect to Prophecy...you do not even recognize the Antichrist.

Third, denying Prophecy that is clearly given changes one's understanding about future events. Israel will be restored, and not to the secular state they are today, but they will be brought back into relationship with God through the New Covenant:


Romans 11:25-27
King James Version (KJV)

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.


And I will give just one more for now: because most ignore, or are unaware that the Prophecy of the Old Testament prophesied of the very Salvation we have in Christ, most do not understand the Cross of Christ. Men were not born again, reconciled to God, immersed in eternal union with God...in the Old Testament. So what most have concluded is the the Old Testament Saints were saved like as we, which is true in the sense that they were justified by grace through faith, but...

...they were not eternally redeemed.

So if you don't understand the Prophecy of the Old Testament, then you will not understand the Prophecy of the New.

This is why the writer of Hebrews states...


Hebrews 5:10-14
King James Version (KJV)

10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.

11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.

12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.


The next statement to his Hebrew brethren is...


Hebrews 6
King James Version (KJV)

1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.


3 And this will we do, if God permit.


An example of a foundational principle is found in the doctrine of the resurrection of the dead as found in the Old Testament. Completion (perfection) is found in the revelation provided to us, such as the glorified body and the Rapture. "Faith in God" is replaced with specific faith in Christ.

Yes, our Eschatology impacts our Soteriology.


Continued...

 

First, be careful about using big words, they can often choke the user.

Secondly, that God is Sovereign is true of every aspect of Redemption, both in the spiritual as well as in the physical.

Third, a Post Trib view is not sustainable, because it demands a denial of the Prophecy of Scripture. You simply cannot have all believers glorified when Christ returns, because we must then nullify a Millennial Kingdom, which is taught in both Old and New Testament Prophecy. The Rapture is taught by Paul as involving everyone in the Church, both living and dead, that is not open to debate:


1 Thessalonians 4:13-17
King James Version (KJV)

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


In the Return of Christ described in Revelation 19 and 20, we see only the Resurrection of the Tribulation Martyrs. Not the resurrection of the Church as a whole. This leaves the Prophecy of Daniel 12, Matthew 25, and Revelation 20 intact and still operable. But if you try to impose the Rapture at His Return, you nullify so many prophecies it is not funny.

Here...


Revelation 20:4-5
King James Version (KJV)

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.


...we see the Tribulation only raised from the dead (presumably glorified based on the duration of their reign with Christ, though the Old Testament testifies men will live long lives in the Kingdom) and the rest of the dead not raised until the thousand years are up. This thousand years leaves the many prophecies of the Old Testament intact, as well as Christ's teachings concerning life in that Kingdom.


Continued...

 

The 'relevance' is that I shall likely be called to meet Jesus face to face long before either the Great Tribulation or the Rapture. They are not the 'time critical' events for me. Rather I have:

2 Corinthians 5:6-10 NASB

6 Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord— 7 for we walk by faith, not by sight— 8 we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord. 9 Therefore we also have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to Him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.
​

This is my motivation. I am not motivated by some questionable timeline created by stringing literal interpretations plucked from largely symbolic visions as if Pre-Trib vs Post-Trib was the 'shiboleth' of true Christianity. I suspect you would have a hard time convincing Coptic Christians in Egypt that we are not in the midst of a tribulation.

 

I agree that the 'Millennial Reign' seems to be the 144,000 Celibate Jewish Martyrs, rather than the Christian Church, from the surrounding context. [Although the fact that their souls were living under a fire and calling out to God in an earlier chapter does cause me to wonder how literal/symbolic to take the 1000 year Kingdom].

... Did you mean "Pre Trib" (rapture) in this paragraph? The part you posted about the Millennial Kingdom seems to require an order of "Tribulation - Kingdom - Rapture".

 

I think you'll find they do.
Acts 1:11 is the clearest, and the one that blows Hyper-preterism out of the water.
However, the only verses to mention a 'rapture' are 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17. They tie the rapture to the return of Christ in glory. We are in the tribulation right now (John 16:33; 2 Timothy 3:1). There are definite indications that things may get worse right before the end (Depending on one's interpretation of Revelation 11:7ff; 13:6ff); maybe they are doing so right now. But the Lord Jesus has not yet returned, so the 'rapture' is definitely post-trib.

 

On the contrary, there are many passages teaching about the Antichrist, here are a few of them:


Daniel 9:24-27
King James Version (KJV)

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


There are also other passages in Daniel which speak of Antichrist, but this will do for now. Other mentions in Daniel also have application to past events involving Antiochus Epiphanes. In this passage we see the Seventieth Week described, and "the prince that shall come" confirms, or strengthens the Covenant of Daniel's People for seven years, but, in the middle of that seven years turns against the Covenant of Law. This is spoken of by Christ:


Matthew 24:15-16
King James Version (KJV)

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:


While Preterists view this to refer to the events of AD70, the one thing they are lacking is the fulfillment of Christ's teaching, which has Him returning. If you read the statements of the preterist in this thread...you will see he is trying to deny Scripture even teaches a Return.

So we now have to scrap Revelation 20:4-5, as well as Matthew 24-25 and the various associated parallel teachings of Christ in the Gospels.

Paul spoke of Antichrist:


2 Thessalonians 2
King James Version (KJV)

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.


This is the Abomination of Desolation spoken of by Daniel and Christ. Paul assures the Thessalonians that they need not worry that the gathering of the Church by Christ has taken place yet, or that the Tribulation was in effect, because he pleads with them based on the very Rapture itself (v.1).

His point is, "If the Return of Christ was at hand...the Antichrist would have already been revealed."

And while some like to give Revelation an early writing, it has historically been viewed to have been written in the late First Century. So we look to John's numerous statements about Antichrist as well, and I will just give a few of those:


Revelation 13:1
King James Version (KJV)

13 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.


Daniel 7:19-24
King James Version (KJV)

19 Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet;

20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.

21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.


Revelation 17
King James Version (KJV)

3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.


7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.


8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.


9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.


10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.


11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.


12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.


13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.


Eight Kings, Five fallen (Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece), one current at the time of writing (Rome), and the other not yet come, which is the Kingdom Antichrist arises from. Even if Preterists were right (and they are not)...this shows that another Kingdom other than Rome will come.

So we see that there is an Antichrist who will rise up in the seventh Kingdom, even as Daniel predicts in Prophecy:


Daniel 7:7-8
King James Version (KJV)

7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.


Prophecy is really very consistent.

The final Kingdom, or Empire that arises will be taken over by the Antichrist, and his rule begins in earnest at the mid-point of the seven year Tribulation. We see in Revelation 11 the Two Witnesses minister for 3 1/2 years, they are then killed, raptured, and then Antichrist begins his reign of terror.

I'll comment on your quotes from John in next post.


Continued...

 

You leave out a pretty important quote from John:


1 John 2:18
King James Version (KJV)

18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

They heard this from Daniel, Christ, and Paul.

This is Antichrist.

Best to read your Bible to understand about the Antichrist. It does not hold the bias of a theology other than Biblical Theology.

This refers to the Return of Christ not the Rapture.

In this event all unbelievers are destroyed and the prophesied Kingdom is established.

You can see the correlation of Revelation and Ezekiel here:


Ezekiel 39
King James Version (KJV)

39 Therefore, thou son of man, prophesy against Gog, and say, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:

2 And I will turn thee back, and leave but the sixth part of thee, and will cause thee to come up from the north parts, and will bring thee upon the mountains of Israel:

3 And I will smite thy bow out of thy left hand, and will cause thine arrows to fall out of thy right hand.

4 Thou shalt fall upon the mountains of Israel, thou, and all thy bands, and the people that is with thee: I will give thee unto the ravenous birds of every sort, and to the beasts of the field to be devoured.

5 Thou shalt fall upon the open field: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord God.


Revelation 19:17-21
King James Version (KJV)

17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.


This is what Christ refers to here:


Luke 17:34-37
King James Version (KJV)

34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.

35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.


Matthew 24:28
King James Version (KJV)

28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.


And that there is a physical creation after the Lord's Return is made evident here:


Ezekiel 39:8-14
King James Version (KJV)

8 Behold, it is come, and it is done, saith the Lord God; this is the day whereof I have spoken.

9 And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years:

10 So that they shall take no wood out of the field, neither cut down any out of the forests; for they shall burn the weapons with fire: and they shall spoil those that spoiled them, and rob those that robbed them, saith the Lord God.

11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will give unto Gog a place there of graves in Israel, the valley of the passengers on the east of the sea: and it shall stop the noses of the passengers: and there shall they bury Gog and all his multitude: and they shall call it The valley of Hamongog.

12 And seven months shall the house of Israel be burying of them, that they may cleanse the land.

13 Yea, all the people of the land shall bury them; and it shall be to them a renown the day that I shall be glorified, saith the Lord God.

14 And they shall sever out men of continual employment, passing through the land to bury with the passengers those that remain upon the face of the earth, to cleanse it: after the end of seven months shall they search.


In Revelation 20, when God destroys the physical descendants of those who enter into the Kingdom, at the end of the one thousand years, there will be no burying of the dead, for the universe will pass away and God will create new heavens and a new Earth, also prophesied in the Old Testament:


Revelation 20:11
King James Version (KJV)

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.


Revelation 21
King James Version (KJV)

21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.


Continued...

 

In view is the generation that sees those things prophesied.

Both of you are wrong: in view is the generation which sees the things which herald the Lord's Return.

Israel has not had a rebirth.

This is how God describes their rebirth:


Ezekiel 36:24-27
King James Version (KJV)

24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.


Ezekiel 37
King James Version (KJV)


1 The hand of the Lord was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the Lord, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones,

2 And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry.

3 And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord God, thou knowest.

4 Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the Lord.

5 Thus saith the Lord God unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:

6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the Lord.

7 So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone.

8 And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them.

9 Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord God; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.

10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.

11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.

12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.

13 And ye shall know that I am the Lord, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,

14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the Lord have spoken it, and performed it, saith the Lord.


Israel will go through the Tribulation. They will be born again through that process.

And when Christ returns, all unbelieving Jews will perish, and only born again Jews will enter into the Kingdom, even as Christ teaches Nicodemus in John 3.


Romans 11:25-27
King James Version (KJV)

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

It really is as simple as simply immersing yourself in the Word of God.


God bless.

 

They're not.

And you would know that if you read all of the teachings of the parousia, which denotes a presence with.

It's really quite simple to separate what refers to the Rapture and what refers to the Return. In the Return, believers are not glorified, they live physically and enter the Kingdom. Only the Tribulation Martyrs are resurrected at His parousia.


God bless.