There are Some Who Believe That a Sinner Does Nothing to be Saved

OK, I'm posting again in Baptist forums now that I am going to a baptist church on Sundays.

I must point out that what you talk of is already addressed by doctrine, just not in the way you frame it.

There are plenty of people who claim to be Christian and perhaps may even go to church that will be rejected at the Judgment by Jesus and cast into hell. There seems no way around that given the many warnings against what many call "false Christians" or "counterfeit Christians." There are such people, evangelicals admit that. It is a downplayed doctrine though in the American Church and shouldn't be at all.

Even more downplayed in the American Church is a doctrine that we are called to confirm our salvation by our works. This is not works saves us or any such thing, but a call to persevere and do the right thing. A call to a people who must discern if they have circumcised hearts or not (2 Peter 1:3-11, 1 Thessalonians 1:4-10).

I mean how can someone circumcised in heart act like one who never had their heart circumcised? How is God able to make us stand at the Day, and not be able to (Jude 1:24 among others)?

I harp a lot on 2 Peter 1, but John MacArthur does a great job explaining the doctrine through 1 Thessalonians 1:

Identifying the Elect, Part 3

The scripture Cross References and Treasury of Scripture on the right of the following page are also very helpful:

2 Peter 1:10 Therefore, my brothers and sisters, make every effort to confirm your calling and election. For if you do these things, you will never stumble,

I will say one last thing: Now I do not want to be a hypocrite, I will admit that I have been divisive on this board and factional at times, I must work harder on understanding and resisting those temptations. That said, the way this post worked by challenging everyone on the BB seems divisive and factional in and of itself, I say in a gentle way and not as a harsh accusation. I know this method of posting from having done that very same thing before on the BB, which I sorely regret.

 

This seems to be a duplicate thread, so I am duplicating my reply

SBG, your problem is that you don't understand Calvinism or Salvation by Grace through Faith. Neither of these great truths deny CHOOSING.

The fact is that both faith (Ephesians 2:8-9) and repentance (Acts 5:31; 11:18) are gifts of God. The fact is that the unsaved CHOOSE to reject Christ, not because God prevents them from believing but because their wicked unbelieving hearts (John 3:19; 1 Corinthians 2:14) lead them to REFUSE and REBEL. God must first do a work of prevenient grace in their hearts (John 6:44; Acts 16:14) before they will CHOOSE to repent and trust in Christ. Whoever wills may come to Christ (Revelation 22:17), but when He comes he will find that God has loved him from eternity past and has drawn him to Christ and to salvation with covenant mercies (Jeremiah 31:3).

 

Was it unnecessary for Jesus to come as a Savior?
From these OT quotes, you almost make it sound like we can just obey the LAW and be saved. I thought the lesson of the Old Testament was that nobody could do what God required, so we need a Savior. A sinless man to do what we cannot.

 

This is where Calvinism talks about (T) Total Inability [nobody chooses God ... see Romans 3:10-12] and (I) Irresistable Grace [God chooses some to save by grace ... see Ephesians 2:1-10]

 

atpallard, how good do you have to be to save yourself, are you good enough?

 

Saved-By-Grace, it's total inability.

Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

The problem is that they are unwilling and unable to repent.

1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

ALL humans are born unwilling and are under the spirit of the air. (Satan)

Not all humans get quickened.

Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

 

This argument always confused me a little. I mean, I learned to read the Bible at a Church of God so I know all about the verses where God wills men to repent. The issue I have is with the mental image of a God who invites people to pretty please accept the perfect love of an omnipotent God to forgive them, and then sits there wringing his hands waiting to see who will exercise their free will to accept and survive. Which one, God or the sinner really has the power over their salvation?

Calvinism presents a people who all give God the middle finger at his offer of perfect love and set their own terms for how things are going to work. So an Omni-everything God chooses to love some before the foundation of the Earth and does WHATEVER IT TAKES to justify, sanctify and glorify the children he loves. As a former criminal and atheist, that is something that just resonates closer to my salvation experience. I didn’t seek God, God snatched me off the street.

 

Sorry, I'll stick with scripture, ALL humans are unwilling.If the natural man considers the gospel to be foolishness then why would he choose it?

1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Here in the following verses Jesus is simply stating that they not come to Him.

Joh 5:38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Joh 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

 

I think it's more correct to say the sinner can't do anything to be saved. Even his faith has to be reckoned by God, and God is not obligated to do this. He reckons the faith of the ungodly by his own sovereign choice (Romans 4:5).

So technically the sinner has to believe, but that belief, in and of itself, is not efficacious. It's all God's choice.