Antichrist?

[Hush Whisper]

God's voice makes you alive to the Truth, are you listening?
Rise up my Brothers and Sisters, Open your mouths and let your LIGHT shine fourth as BRIGHT as you can stand it.
Let the Father Speak for you. He's in there isn't He?

 

[Hush Whisper]

The DIFFERENCE between a Tare and a Christian is, one is in the Light and one has the Light within them.
"many" people are in the Light, you SEE them everywhere.
"few" people show the Light and you see it best in the Darkness.

 

[Hush Whisper]

Stop being afraid to Shine.
One day at Judgment, someones going to say to God-
* where were you * why didn't you do anything * why couldn't you help..etc etc.
He's going to look over at Us and say... I was right there and there and there and there and there and there and there and there and there and there and there..over and over again.

Do you get it or don't you have it?

 

[Hush Whisper]

Do you know what a REVIVAL is?
It's stoking the flames of a dying fire.
I was sent to "stoke" you.

2 of my very favorite songs are.
"It only takes a spark to get a fire going"
and
"His favorite song of all"

There's so much I could tell you. Please, let it be enough for what you've heard and go out and win the lost for
Jesus. Go shout it from the Mountain Tops,
I want My world to know, the Lord of Love as COME to ME (weeping so bad right now) I want to pass it on.

Please... run.

 

[robycop3]

hERE'S MY $0.02 WORTH:

First, the antichrist & the 'beast' will be the same man. ("Beast" is also the Scriptural name of his empire.) He will form an empire from many of the nations & peoples that formed the Roman and Holy Roman Empires.

He will be the most-evil man who will ever live or has lived. He will make Hitler & Stalin seem like naughty toddlers in comparison.. He will overthrow 3 other rulers on his way to power. And no one will be able to defeat his forces in battle. And I believe he will broker some kind of deal between Israel & Islam, so the jews can build their 3rd temple.

He will be of Roman descent, but that could be from almost anywhere on earth, as Romans have gone everywhere in the 1500 years since their empire fell. But I do NOT believe he will be a present celebrity or ruler.

He will have a miracle-working false prophet as his deputy. this prophet shall be able to call in lightning strikes & supernaturally make his boss' statue speak.

The Jews shall build a 3rd temple in Jerusalem.The beast & FP will enter it & set up the beast's statue, which the FP will cause to speak. The beast will commit the "abomination of desolation" by declaring himself to be God. the FP shall command all men to worship the beast, & unfortunately, many people will.

They shall institute the "marka the beast", which, I believe, will be an implantable microchip. The tech for such a device already exists! The rapture will occur shortly before this, which the beast, who will be the best demagogue of all time, will explain away, & most will believe him.

Shortly afterward, the great trib will hit. It'll last til JESUS returns & cuts it short.

I believe his full empire will last no more than 3.5 years, although he may become a world figure before then. Then Jesus will return, & he will send his army after Him, and you know the rest.

 

[MartyF]

Hello Dave,

Many look for the symbols John used to describe the Beast and they are still waiting. But if we look for what the symbols depict, we clearly see this evil throughout history. And we have guidelines for what to expect as well.

I agree with this. Babylon's will come and go up until the coming of Christ.

I believe the Papacy whose deadly wound was healed in 1928 (google it) will make a comeback as well as Islam, also identified as antichrist by Calvin and Luther. The influx of Catholics into the US from south of the border might play into this as well.

I take the first chapter of Revelation literally. John was literally writing to seven churches in what is now South-Central Turkey. So the events described are not about the U.S. in my opinion. However, just like the letter to the Romans, John's letter can be used for insight and wisdom into our situation.

I am not fond of Catholicism. I believe they are a major cause of Syncretism in Christianity. However, I believe Islam is a much, much bigger threat. I believe the undermining of the scripture which occurred in the 19th century has left Christianity weakened theologically in defending itself from Islam. Evolution undermined the vital book of Genesis and God's first covenant. The popular redating of the scripture where it has become popular for many theologians to say that the Old Testament wasn't written until the 4th Century B.C. and the New Testament Gospels were written in the Second Century A.D. at the earliest has further undermined the scripture.

I believe the Scripture was written close to the time in which the events occurred with some minor editing. I don't believe in Evolution. The undermining of Scripture tries to reduce the Bible to nothing more than a morality tale. As Paul says, if that's true, it's all worthless.

Marty

 

[MartyF]

I see many conversations on who the antichrist is.
What difference would it make if you knew? (please respond, I really want opinions on this).

Hello Hush,

It isn't a big secret who the Antichrist is or antichrists are. The Antichrist is the same serpent mentioned in the third chapter of Genesis. In revelation, he's the Dragon. The antichrists are anyone who opposes Jesus Christ. John specifically defines who the antichrists are.

It is important to know that as Christians we have real enemies. John liked to call our enemies - antichrists. Now there is more nuance to how John used the term antichrist and Antichrist but I don't plan on discussing the semantics here. Our enemies are those who oppose Christ. Now, unlike our enemies, we love our enemies and pray that they will join our side. But they are our enemies and we need to realize that when we associate with them.

For example, "Christian" women sometimes ask if it is alright to marry a Muslim. They have falsely been led to believe that Christians don't have enemies. They don't know that those who oppose Jesus Christ are our enemy. Now, we should love our enemies. But Jesus did not mean that we should love them with our genitals.

So yes, it is very important to realize that Christians have enemies. We love our enemies and hope they will accept Jesus. But we still need to realize they are our enemies and not accept them into our confidence.

Knowing who our enemies are is vital. Not only does it stop us from doing something foolish like marrying our enemy, it also helps to prevent us from being tricked into adopting practices opposed by Scripture. So, when someone tells us to proclaim that someone other than Jesus is our Lord, we know that someone is our enemy.

So, what people are trying to do is identify who our enemy is. And many are trying to find out who our greatest enemy of our time is.

It's not necessarily an idle theological argument.

Marty

 

[kyredneck]

Is he past, present or yet to come? My present belief is that he exists any time a totalitarian government demands obedience over God’s word. We see this throughout history, especially in Nero and the Papacy.

...that's in the same vein of the Historicist view that I hold to concerning the beast of Revelation.

 

[robycop3]

Hello Dave,



I agree with this. Babylon's will come and go up until the coming of Christ.



I take the first chapter of Revelation literally. John was literally writing to seven churches in what is now South-Central Turkey. So the events described are not about the U.S. in my opinion. However, just like the letter to the Romans, John's letter can be used for insight and wisdom into our situation.

I am not fond of Catholicism. I believe they are a major cause of Syncretism in Christianity. However, I believe Islam is a much, much bigger threat. I believe the undermining of the scripture which occurred in the 19th century has left Christianity weakened theologically in defending itself from Islam. Evolution undermined the vital book of Genesis and God's first covenant. The popular redating of the scripture where it has become popular for many theologians to say that the Old Testament wasn't written until the 4th Century B.C. and the New Testament Gospels were written in the Second Century A.D. at the earliest has further undermined the scripture.

I believe the Scripture was written close to the time in which the events occurred with some minor editing. I don't believe in Evolution. The undermining of Scripture tries to reduce the Bible to nothing more than a morality tale. As Paul says, if that's true, it's all worthless.

Marty

the letters to the 7 churches were before the prophecies were given to John, & there's no mention of them in the letters Jesus told John to send to each of them.

And obviously, the events in the prophecies haven't yet occurred.

Proof?

The earth went right on as usual after the prophecies were given, whether it was before or after 70 AD. The prophesied events were earth-changing happenings, and it's obvious they haven't occurred. While there's some symbolism in the rev, it all represents real events. We see the angel explained the symbols in Rev. 17 at the end of the chapter, and our hindsight makes the meanings of the other metaphors and symbols clear.

The Revelation is a book about LITERAL events yet to come.

 

[robycop3]

Hello Hush,

It isn't a big secret who the Antichrist is or antichrists are. The Antichrist is the same serpent mentioned in the third chapter of Genesis. In revelation, he's the Dragon. The antichrists are anyone who opposes Jesus Christ. John specifically defines who the antichrists are.

It is important to know that as Christians we have real enemies. John liked to call our enemies - antichrists. Now there is more nuance to how John used the term antichrist and Antichrist but I don't plan on discussing the semantics here. Our enemies are those who oppose Christ. Now, unlike our enemies, we love our enemies and pray that they will join our side. But they are our enemies and we need to realize that when we associate with them.

For example, "Christian" women sometimes ask if it is alright to marry a Muslim. They have falsely been led to believe that Christians don't have enemies. They don't know that those who oppose Jesus Christ are our enemy. Now, we should love our enemies. But Jesus did not mean that we should love them with our genitals.

So yes, it is very important to realize that Christians have enemies. We love our enemies and hope they will accept Jesus. But we still need to realize they are our enemies and not accept them into our confidence.

Knowing who our enemies are is vital. Not only does it stop us from doing something foolish like marrying our enemy, it also helps to prevent us from being tricked into adopting practices opposed by Scripture. So, when someone tells us to proclaim that someone other than Jesus is our Lord, we know that someone is our enemy.

So, what people are trying to do is identify who our enemy is. And many are trying to find out who our greatest enemy of our time is.

It's not necessarily an idle theological argument.

Marty

Marty, I suggest you study the following Scriptures very closely:

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

Now, that event has simply not yet occurred. I believe these Scriptures, and others, make it plain that THE antichrist will be ONE MAN.

Sure, there have been antichrists ever since Christ was here, there are many antichrists loose right now, & there'll be others in the future, but this ONE antichrist will be worse than all the others put together!

No man ever sat in the old temple declaring himself to be God, and since that temple is destroyed, this necessitates the Jews' building a new one, which they fully plan to do. Only then will that man come & fulfill 2 Thess. 2:3-4. That will be the "abomination of desolation" prophesied by Daniel, & Jesus.

 

[Yeshua1]

the letters to the 7 churches were before the prophecies were given to John, & there's no mention of them in the letters Jesus told John to send to each of them.

And obviously, the events in the prophecies haven't yet occurred.

Proof?

The earth went right on as usual after the prophecies were given, whether it was before or after 70 AD. The prophesied events were earth-changing happenings, and it's obvious they haven't occurred. While there's some symbolism in the rev, it all represents real events. We see the angel explained the symbols in Rev. 17 at the end of the chapter, and our hindsight makes the meanings of the other metaphors and symbols clear.

The Revelation is a book about LITERAL events yet to come.

When the Second Coming hits, it will not not be known in just a small region, but the entire earth and all on it will know!

 

[MartyF]

Marty, I suggest you study the following Scriptures very closely:

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

Now, that event has simply not yet occurred. I believe these Scriptures, and others, make it plain that THE antichrist will be ONE MAN.

Sure, there have been antichrists ever since Christ was here, there are many antichrists loose right now, & there'll be others in the future, but this ONE antichrist will be worse than all the others put together!

No man ever sat in the old temple declaring himself to be God, and since that temple is destroyed, this necessitates the Jews' building a new one, which they fully plan to do. Only then will that man come & fulfill 2 Thess. 2:3-4. That will be the "abomination of desolation" prophesied by Daniel, & Jesus.

Hello robycop3,

Thank you for sharing this passage. It encouraged me to reread larger portions of the Bible.

We're starting to get into semantics and pre-/a-/post- millennialism. I won't claim to know which one will be right. But I will clarify my viewpoint.

In Paul's first letter to the Thessalonians, he mentioned near the end how Jesus will come unexpectedly. Unfortunately, people were convinced to believe that Jesus had already come. Paul tries to clarify this and says there is still something that has to happen and it can't possibly be the end. Most notably - the temple is still standing in Jerusalem and the good news hasn't been spread around the world yet. So, at the time Paul wrote the letter, it should be clear to those who knew the Gospels that the end times hadn't already happened. Someone had falsified letters and were giving false teachings that were scaring some in the church of Thessalonica.

The end times aren't suppose to scare us Christians and this is why the letters tend to focus of Christ's coming rather than the bad stuff in between. Both John and Paul mention that God is holding him back. However, he exists now and his spirit is already at work in the world (1 John 4, 2 Thess 2). For me this is the "Devil". However the name changes dramatically depending on who is writing in the Bible. Although, when God finally releases the Devil, he will take on human form. In this way, I agree that Antichrist will become "human". I still believe that he is Devil. I don't think the Bible makes clear exactly how this will happen.

I think many people focus too much on the rebuilding of a physical temple in Jerusalem. For starters, Jesus already rebuilt the Temple. It took him 3 days. I think that sometimes Christians focus on a piece of real estate which is no longer important. Whereas the place they store the Holy Spirit is very important.

Now I want to start reading up more about the Holy Spirit.

Marty

 

[Hush Whisper]

Anyone live near Akron, Ohio?

 

[robycop3]

When the Second Coming hits, it will not not be known in just a small region, but the entire earth and all on it will know!

That's what I believe as well.

Right now, people all over the world can see an event as it happens via satellite TV. How much more can JESUS do, to reveal Himself to the whole world at once when He returns?

 

[robycop3]

Hello robycop3,

Thank you for sharing this passage. It encouraged me to reread larger portions of the Bible.

We're starting to get into semantics and pre-/a-/post- millennialism. I won't claim to know which one will be right. But I will clarify my viewpoint.

In Paul's first letter to the Thessalonians, he mentioned near the end how Jesus will come unexpectedly. Unfortunately, people were convinced to believe that Jesus had already come. Paul tries to clarify this and says there is still something that has to happen and it can't possibly be the end. Most notably - the temple is still standing in Jerusalem and the good news hasn't been spread around the world yet. So, at the time Paul wrote the letter, it should be clear to those who knew the Gospels that the end times hadn't already happened. Someone had falsified letters and were giving false teachings that were scaring some in the church of Thessalonica.

The end times aren't suppose to scare us Christians and this is why the letters tend to focus of Christ's coming rather than the bad stuff in between. Both John and Paul mention that God is holding him back. However, he exists now and his spirit is already at work in the world (1 John 4, 2 Thess 2). For me this is the "Devil". However the name changes dramatically depending on who is writing in the Bible. Although, when God finally releases the Devil, he will take on human form. In this way, I agree that Antichrist will become "human". I still believe that he is Devil. I don't think the Bible makes clear exactly how this will happen.

I think many people focus too much on the rebuilding of a physical temple in Jerusalem. For starters, Jesus already rebuilt the Temple. It took him 3 days. I think that sometimes Christians focus on a piece of real estate which is no longer important. Whereas the place they store the Holy Spirit is very important.

Now I want to start reading up more about the Holy Spirit.

Marty

Marty, it's quite plain that Paul was referring to a literal building that the man of sin will sit in. The revelation prophecies are about literal events yet to come. Please don't confuse the temple the Jews are gonna build with the temple of the body, which is what Jesus referred to when He said, "Destroy this temple & I will raise it up in 3 days."

 

[Covenanter]

Anyone live near Akron, Ohio?

Nobody. The place is absolutely derelict.

 

[MartyF]

Marty, it's quite plain that Paul was referring to a literal building that the man of sin will sit in. The revelation prophecies are about literal events yet to come. Please don't confuse the temple the Jews are gonna build with the temple of the body, which is what Jesus referred to when He said, "Destroy this temple & I will raise it up in 3 days."

Hello robycop3,

Really? Just like it was quite plain that the Messiah was going to defeat the Romans and set up a physical kingdom with him as a physical king? And it was also quite plain that the Temple Ezekiel was referring to at the end of Ezekiel 37 is a literal building? No one was confused and not one misunderstood - especially the 12 disciples of Jesus.

Ok, let’s suppose it is a physical temple of God. It has to be different than the previous two temples. There is no reason for the Holy of holies for starters. Altar of Burnt offerings? Oh, and where is the chair or throne put? Or does he sit on the floor? The Jews are going to build it?

If you’re expecting the third Temple just like the previous two, I’m pretty sure you’ll be disappointed. I also think Christians should learn from the lessons of the past and not have so much hubris as to be absolutely certain about the details of an apocalyptic passage.

It could be that the temple Paul mentions is a physical building.

 

[Covenanter]

Marty, it's quite plain that Paul was referring to a literal building that the man of sin will sit in. The revelation prophecies are about literal events yet to come. Please don't confuse the temple the Jews are gonna build with the temple of the body, which is what Jesus referred to when He said, "Destroy this temple & I will raise it up in 3 days."

Hello robycop3,

Thank you for sharing this passage. It encouraged me to reread larger portions of the Bible.

We're starting to get into semantics and pre-/a-/post- millennialism. I won't claim to know which one will be right. But I will clarify my viewpoint.

In Paul's first letter to the Thessalonians, he mentioned near the end how Jesus will come unexpectedly. Unfortunately, people were convinced to believe that Jesus had already come. Paul tries to clarify this and says there is still something that has to happen and it can't possibly be the end. Most notably - the temple is still standing in Jerusalem and the good news hasn't been spread around the world yet. So, at the time Paul wrote the letter, it should be clear to those who knew the Gospels that the end times hadn't already happened. Someone had falsified letters and were giving false teachings that were scaring some in the church of Thessalonica.

The end times aren't suppose to scare us Christians and this is why the letters tend to focus of Christ's coming rather than the bad stuff in between. Both John and Paul mention that God is holding him back. However, he exists now and his spirit is already at work in the world (1 John 4, 2 Thess 2). For me this is the "Devil". However the name changes dramatically depending on who is writing in the Bible. Although, when God finally releases the Devil, he will take on human form. In this way, I agree that Antichrist will become "human". I still believe that he is Devil. I don't think the Bible makes clear exactly how this will happen.

I think many people focus too much on the rebuilding of a physical temple in Jerusalem. For starters, Jesus already rebuilt the Temple. It took him 3 days. I think that sometimes Christians focus on a piece of real estate which is no longer important. Whereas the place they store the Holy Spirit is very important.

Now I want to start reading up more about the Holy Spirit.

Marty

I think there is a real danger in reading the prophetic Scriptures & seeing a real, physical fulfilment. Jesus wasn't quite the Messiah the Jews expected. In fact their expectations caused him not only to fail to recognise him, but to reject him. John 1.

Likewise looking for a single recognisable antichrist may cause us to miss the many antichrists John warned about. Also prophecies as in Paul's letters were written well before AD 70, when the fulfilment of Jesus Olivet prophecies was still future, and this generation was still active in its control of Jerusalem & the temple, & persecuting the Christians.

Of the Old Covenant prophets, only Daniel survived the exile, & he specifically prophesied the 70 weeks culminating in the baptism/anointing of Jesus at the end of 69 weeks, the 70th week describing his confirming the Covenant, during his ministry & by the Apostolic ministry, the 70 weeks ending with the stoning of Stephen & the opening of the Gospel to the Gentiles. All that remained was the destruction of city & sanctuary within the lifetime of the Jews who saw & rejected their Messiah. Many antichrists.

Only Haggai, Zechariah & Malachi prophesied after the return from Babylon. Ezekiel's temple prophecy cannot be taken literally - the worship of God is wherever there are believers (John 4) and believers comprise the New Covenant temple, built with living stones.

The way Paul (2 Thes. 2) & John (Rev. 11) write of the temple, they are referring to the doomed Jerusalem temple, so any antichrist figures will be Jews long dead. Contemporary history names the Jewish rebel leaders.

I believe we should learn from fulfilled prophecy, & be watching for antichristian activity wherever it occurs. But above all watching for the return of our LORD Jesus Christ in glory for resurrection & judgment, when he will establish the NH&NE.

There is too much false literal interpretation.

 

[robycop3]

Hello robycop3,

Really? Just like it was quite plain that the Messiah was going to defeat the Romans and set up a physical kingdom with him as a physical king? And it was also quite plain that the Temple Ezekiel was referring to at the end of Ezekiel 37 is a literal building? No one was confused and not one misunderstood - especially the 12 disciples of Jesus.

Ok, let’s suppose it is a physical temple of God. It has to be different than the previous two temples. There is no reason for the Holy of holies for starters. Altar of Burnt offerings? Oh, and where is the chair or throne put? Or does he sit on the floor? The Jews are going to build it?

If you’re expecting the third Temple just like the previous two, I’m pretty sure you’ll be disappointed. I also think Christians should learn from the lessons of the past and not have so much hubris as to be absolutely certain about the details of an apocalyptic passage.

It could be that the temple Paul mentions is a physical building.

Now, please notice I didn't say this new temple will be an actual TEMPLE OF GOD, but most of the WORLD will view it as such. But the Old Covenant of animal sacrifices was replaced by Jesus' New Covenant of belief in Himself as Savior. However, Orthodox Jews still believe the OC is still in effect.

I don't know what part of this new temple the 'beast' will occupy, or how long he will be there, etc. I only know what SCRIPTURE says. And more than one Scripture says he will be in the temple proclaiming himself to be God. I don't think there should be any doubt that this will be a literal event, in a literal temple in Jerusalem.

 

[robycop3]

I think there is a real danger in reading the prophetic Scriptures & seeing a real, physical fulfilment.

WHY????????
Many prophecies have been literally fulfilled. Jesus said Jerusalem & the temple would be destroyed, and they were. He said there'd be war/rumor of war, and there was & still is. (The "Pax Romana" was ongoing while He was here.) I can go on & on with prophecies by true prophets of God that were literally fulfilled!

Jesus wasn't quite the Messiah the Jews expected. In fact their expectations caused him not only to fail to recognise him, but to reject him. John 1.

That's cuz they hadn't thoroughly studied Scripture, describing a suffering Messiah who would be "cut off". Instead, they expected Him to miraculously overthrow the Romans' rule over them & set up a magnificent new Jewish nation. This view was especially prevalent among the Zealots, of which Iscariot was one.

Likewise looking for a single recognisable antichrist may cause us to miss the many antichrists John warned about. Also prophecies as in Paul's letters were written well before AD 70, when the fulfilment of Jesus Olivet prophecies was still future, and this generation was still active in its control of Jerusalem & the temple, & persecuting the Christians.

Scripture plainly prophesies one great antichrist who will rule the most=powerful empire of all time, ruling virtually the entire earth. Daniel, Paul, and Jesus Himself all prophesied of him. There should be no doubt this will literally occur.

And no one doubts there have been, presently are, and will be, many, many antichrists.

Of the Old Covenant prophets, only Daniel survived the exile, & he specifically prophesied the 70 weeks culminating in the baptism/anointing of Jesus at the end of 69 weeks, the 70th week describing his confirming the Covenant, during his ministry & by the Apostolic ministry, the 70 weeks ending with the stoning of Stephen & the opening of the Gospel to the Gentiles. All that remained was the destruction of city & sanctuary within the lifetime of the Jews who saw & rejected their Messiah. Many antichrists.

Only Haggai, Zechariah & Malachi prophesied after the return from Babylon. Ezekiel's temple prophecy cannot be taken literally - the worship of God is wherever there are believers (John 4) and believers comprise the New Covenant temple, built with living stones.

The way Paul (2 Thes. 2) & John (Rev. 11) write of the temple, they are referring to the doomed Jerusalem temple, so any antichrist figures will be Jews long dead. Contemporary history names the Jewish rebel leaders.

I believe we should learn from fulfilled prophecy, & be watching for antichristian activity wherever it occurs. But above all watching for the return of our LORD Jesus Christ in glory for resurrection & judgment, when he will establish the NH&NE.

There is too much false literal interpretation.

By reducing Scriptural prophecy to "symbolic" or "methphorical" status, men can make it read any way they choose. This is heretical and dangerous, as was demonstrated by the Jews' trying to make Messiah fir THEIR conception of Him by incorrect interps of Scripture, and their own imaginations, insteada seeing and believing what GOD had told their ancestors about Messiah.

Symbolism in prophecy & prophetic visions always represents something literal, just as God explained to Ezekiel that the army of bones that come together, grew flesh, and were given breath from God represented the WHOLE House of Israel. And the angel who showed the vision to John in Rev. 17 explained all its symbols after the vision was over- again, LITERAL coming events!

I totally disagree with not "taking" Biblical prophecy LITERALLY. There's no good reason not to!

As the subject of this thread is "the" antichrist, I believe that this will be a literal man, whom Daniel, Paul, and JESUS HIMSELF all prophesied will come!