Birth Before Belief

[tyndale1946]

I hear some say on this board I came to Christ... Well I came to Christ too but what brought me?... Did I decide one day I believe I will come to Christ?... I can tell you without reservation that was not my case... I was brought up in church since the age of seven but I didn't join the church until the age of twenty-two... In all that time I heard sermon after sermon after sermon on the Sovereign Grace of All Mighty God but never joined, why?... I had a near death experience in the fields of Vietnam and soon after returned home and joined the church... The reason I had not joined before is the Lord had not prepared me... He had not changed my heart to receive the thing pertaining to his kingdom on earth the church... He had not change my cold and stony heart and given me a heart of flesh... Some say just believe and be born again... If you are not born again how can you believe?... One does not believe to be born again, one believes because THEY ARE ALREADY BORN AGAIN!... Can anyone one here claim that they believed in their natural father before they saw his face?... You had to be born first... Is the Gospel any different?... Birth comes first!... Ye must be born again!... Brother Glen

 

[Revmitchell]

Joh 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,


Nope, one must first believe then they receive.

 

[InTheLight]

One does not believe to be born again, one believes because THEY ARE ALREADY BORN AGAIN!...

John 20:31 but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.

Ephesians 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Acts 16:30 And he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
31 So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

 

[tyndale1946]

Joh 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,


Nope, one must first believe then they receive.

Disagree!... Birth comes first... Then there are these verses from the Corinthian letter... Change must come first before the sinner can believe... You say belief comes before birth then what are you going to do with these verses... Brother Glen

1 Corinthians 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[kyredneck]

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he the right to become children of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. Jn 1

Joh 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,

...you're point being that these chose of their own will to be born not of their own will?

Not! V 13 is a threefold declaration that man is totally passive in the birth from above.

 

[tyndale1946]

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he the right to become children of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. Jn 1



...you're point being that these chose of their own will to be born not of their own will?

Not! V 13 is a threefold declaration that man is totally passive in the birth from above.

AMEN!... Thanks for that Kentucky... I forgot that one... That Mitchell he was trying to slide one by me, thanks for having my back my brother... Brother Glen

 

[InTheLight]

Disagree!... Birth comes first... Then there are these verses from the Corinthian letter... Change must come first before the sinner can believe... You say belief comes before birth then what are you going to do with these verses... Brother Glen

2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

The natural man, under the influence of the Holy Spirit, can receive and understand the gospel and become a believer.

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.

 

[Revmitchell]

Disagree!... Birth comes first... Then there are these verses from the Corinthian letter... Change must come first before the sinner can believe... You say belief comes before birth then what are you going to do with these verses... Brother Glen

1 Corinthians 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

So if you read the entirety of that chapter and in fact include chapter one you will find that the comparison, in context, is the spiritual thinking verses the worldly thinking not the saved and the lost. Further your personal interpretation of this passage is in direct conflict with John 1:12 and some other passages as well.

 

[1689Dave]

Many turn the gospel into law when they make belief a condition people must meet in order to save themselves. But the gospel is not an offer, it is an announcement to all who believe, that they have eternal life. In this case, faith is a characteristic of those whom God saves. And not a condition for the self-righteous to meet in order to save themselves.

If we must decide to believe, it is because we do not. If we experience the new birth, we will believe the gospel just as we believe the chair we are sitting in exists.

 

[InTheLight]

Many turn the gospel into law when they make belief a condition people must meet in order to save themselves.

John 3:18 He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

But the gospel is not an offer, it is an announcement to all who believe, that they have eternal life.

Mark 16:15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

In this case, faith is a characteristic of those whom God saves. And not a condition for the self-righteous to meet in order to save themselves.

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good testimony.

 

[Jesus Saves!]

Faith which is believeing and trusting comes by hearing and, and hearing by the Word of God. We know by faith the elders obtained a good report, but they died having not received the promises but saw them a far off. They believed that God was sending Christ the Lamb to die for their sins. So, they believed before they received the promise.

 

[Revmitchell]

Many turn the gospel into law when they make belief a condition people must meet in order to save themselves. .

Here you are guilty of the black and white logical fallacy. There are certainly more options to be considered here logically. Since God demands that we believe first then we are saved there is no issue with the law. Second, references to the law in scripture in relationship to salvation are always references to the OT Jewish laws. We do not get to broadly apply that to any action one takes. Third, it can never be accused of saving one self if we are responding as God has required no matter what the action is. He who has the power and authority to provide salvation can only be given credit for it. Lastly, my position sits firmly on scripture, you have provided no firm foundation.

 

[TCassidy]

Since God demands that we believe first then we are saved there is no issue with the law.

I agree. Be we must not conflate regeneration with salvation.

Third, it can never be accused of saving one self if we are responding as God has required no matter what the action is.

I agree, with the caveat that the lost man will not respond in a favorable way to God. We can only respond as our fallen nature allows. That is why we need God. Until He regenerates our sin sick soul there is nothing we can do to please Him.

 

[Benjamin]

I hear some say on this board I came to Christ... Well I came to Christ too but what brought me?...

Thanks for the testimony, I enjoy hearing your perspective. I think I’ll just share a comparison with mine and let the rest pass:

[long winded, I know]

I think all that came to Christ will say that God called them and drew them. They take no pride in the work of being saved on their own, because it was His work that did the job, if anything I felt foolish being I knew He was always near but that it took me so long to turn my heart toward His love, to put away my pride and confess that I needed Him.

Did I decide one day I believe I will come to Christ?... I can tell you without reservation that was not my case...

Although much lead up to it it was one day that I finally decided that I was beaten and I had nowhere to turn, that there was no one is this world that could help and that I turned to God. That night I pleaded with Him to know Him and for Him to guide my life because, as I confessed, my way wasn’t working and never would and my only hope was in Him.

I was brought up in church since the age of seven but I didn't join the church until the age of twenty-two...

My Mom had taken me to Sunday school occasionally until I was about 8, after that I could count on my hands how many times I went and didn’t join a church until after I was saved at 35.

In all that time I heard sermon after sermon after sermon on the Sovereign Grace of All Mighty God but never joined, …

I heard on the street many things about God and religions and my impression was that churches told you how much of a sinner you were, asked for your money and were law givers that were out to judge and control you. I had little interest when I saw some of those goofballs on TV and thought most were nuts!

…why?... I had a near death experience in the fields of Vietnam and soon after returned home and joined the church...

Why? … a very hard and disappointing life, a heart so broken that I hardened it so as not to be vulnerable and feel any more pain, but the belief that I would never truly love again being shattered when my baby girl’s love found her way into my heart, cracked it wide open and weakened me again. Then, one day I saw her imitating the despair I had been living and knew I didn’t want her walking in my steps of sadness and needed to do something about it but also saw the writing on the wall that she was about to face the same cruel world without even my protection as I came to the realization that I was about to lose her due to a failing marriage which I had no control over changing and giving her up to be alone in the world without me, even with all my insuperable problems, was more than I could bear.

The reason I had not joined before is the Lord had not prepared me... He had not changed my heart to receive the thing pertaining to his kingdom on earth the church... He had not change my cold and stony heart and given me a heart of flesh...

I was not saved through the efforts of a church but by revelation in God’s Word, wherein after that one night while sheading long held back tears I put away my pride and confessed that He was the only way to a good life and in brokenness I surrendered to His guidance, and pleaded for a relationship with Him, and I asked how to hear Him…and … I suddenly felt His presence like I can only describe as a comforting hand on my shoulder and a peace like I had never known. The very next day, still feeling this strange sense of peace, I began to seek Him and to my amazement He spoke to me from the Words in the Bible that I picked up in that seeking and I began to read, a book which someone had given me several years before. There in a book that I had never opened and knew virtually nothing about God lead me to the exact pages I needed and clearly answered my questions of how to hear Him and have a relationship with Him. I saw how great His love was, Who the Word was and the purpose, the offer of light in John 1, next, the wisdom and truth behind the promise that if one asks, seeks and knocks that he receives, finds and the door is opened! All in one very long sitting! Overwhelmed by the revelation and truth in those Words I dropped me to my knees in faith, tears rolling down my face in the realization that God loved me and was answering my prayers and talking to “me” …an undeserving broken man.

Some say just believe and be born again... If you are not born again how can you believe?... One does not believe to be born again, one believes because THEY ARE ALREADY BORN AGAIN!...

God called, I responded, …finally! He loved me first, there is no doubt in that. I died to myself that day, to my ways, and freely accepted Him in my life as my Lord. He picked me up, gave me a new life from above and I was born again.

Can anyone one here claim that they believed in their natural father before they saw his face?... You had to be born first... Is the Gospel any different?... Birth comes first!... Ye must be born again!... Brother Glen

In my case, I always felt I believed in God, though invisible, the things of him from the creation of the world were clearly seen, being understood by the things that He made is a biblical truth that I love and accept and realize that I always truly knew in my heart that I had no excuses when His judgment came upon me. I knew He was there, watching me, but I did not glorify Him as my God rather I conformed to the world and its “wisdom” and tried to be the judge between good and evil for myself. But, unlike the testimony of many others I did not come to God in fear of judgment, I came in love of the truth which He revealed to me and to which He gets all the credit. The power of His love saved me! I turned to hear His calling, I died to myself, to my pride of life, and at the same time put my faith and all my hope in Him and I was shown the truth and truth set me free and I was born again! How wonderful is the face of Jesus Christ that shines in the darkness and brings that light to all in the world! I love this verse:

(2Co 4:6) For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

 

[Revmitchell]

I agree. Be we must not conflate regeneration with salvation.

Sure we should since they are the exact same thing.

I agree, with the caveat that the lost man will not respond in a favorable way to God. We can only respond as our fallen nature allows.

So then how is it the a man with a fallen nature able to do things that are within the will of God, such as feed the poor, help the homeless, if his nature is completely fallen and he can only do things according to his nature?

 

[1689Dave]

Here you are guilty of the black and white logical fallacy. There are certainly more options to be considered here logically. Since God demands that we believe first then we are saved there is no issue with the law. Second, references to the law in scripture in relationship to salvation are always references to the OT Jewish laws. We do not get to broadly apply that to any action one takes. Third, it can never be accused of saving one self if we are responding as God has required no matter what the action is. He who has the power and authority to provide salvation can only be given credit for it. Lastly, my position sits firmly on scripture, you have provided no firm foundation.

All of the above reasoning reads into scripture "conditions" the self-righteous must meet in order to save themselves. Thereby turning grace into law. Or the gospel into law.

Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit which means a person must have the Holy Spirit before they can believe.

 

[1689Dave]

John 3:18 He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.




Mark 16:15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.




Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good testimony.

There are two ways of looking at these verses. Faith as a condition we must meet (law instead of grace). Or faith as a characteristic of those whom God saves. (Salvation by grace alone).

 

[Revmitchell]

All of the above reasoning reads into scripture "conditions" the self-righteous must meet in order to save themselves. Thereby turning grace into law. Or the gospel into law.

Let me ask you a question, since when does the receiving of a gift also constitute being part of the giving of the gift?

 

[1689Dave]

Let me ask you a question, since when does the receiving of a gift also constitute being part of the giving of the gift?

If "receiving" depends on an act of the will, then salvation is by self-righteousness. I received Christ like I received a pat on the back and had nothing to do with it.

 

[TCassidy]

Sure we should since they are the exact same thing.

And therein lies the problem. You fail to see the very important distinction between two very different things.

So then how is it the a man with a fallen nature able to do things that are within the will of God, such as feed the poor, help the homeless, if his nature is completely fallen and he can only do things according to his nature?

Because fallen people can still do things that appear, on the surface, to be "good." But remember Proverbs 21:4, "An high look, and a proud heart, and the plowing of the wicked, is sin."

Think about that for a minute. Why is the good hard work of plowing a sin?

Why does the farmer plow? So he can plant his crops.

Why plant crops? To grow food.

Why grow food? So he can eat and keep up his strength.

Why keep up his strength? So he can continue his rebellion against God!

The motive is not to please God. And that is sin.