Kenneth Miller: Respected Christian Champion of Evolution

[Deadworm]

Honest and open intellectual inquiry is generally alien to the evangelical mindset with reference to the evolution vs. intelligent Design debate. Instead, they rely on creationist organizations to get a biased view of the basic issues, ignoring the most respected and well-informed apologists for evolution. As a result, their views are informed by straw men that are erected so as to be dismantled to create the illusion of some sort of intellectual victory. So few evangelicals have the integrity to fully engage the most articulate and respected champions and authors on evolutionary theory like Dr. Kenneth Miller, author of standard high school and university biology text books. Miller has served as a key witness persuading a conservative judge that Intelligent Design should not be taught in public schools. In that court case, creationist apologists were no match for his better informed arguments. I challenge you to temporarily, if timidly, leave the safe confines of your fundamentalist thought Ghetto, breathe the fresh air of honest and open inquiry, and watch and critically engage Kenneth Miller's eloquent and engaging lecture at Notre Dame. btw, Miller is a devout Roman Catholic:

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?...F5C3FBDECE46BBB84FC5F5C3FBDECE46BBB&FORM=VIRE

Competent Christian apologetics is a function of a willingness to critically engage the most articulate and well-informed case for the contrary position. Why am I confident that few here have the intellectual integrity to watch this video?

 

[Yeshua1]

Honest and open intellectual inquiry is generally alien to the evangelical mindset with reference to the evolution vs. intelligent Design debate. Instead, they rely on creationist organizations to get a biased view of the basic issues, ignoring the most respected and well-informed apologists for evolution. As a result, their views are informed by straw men that are erected so as to be dismantled to create the illusion of some sort of intellectual victory. So few evangelicals have the integrity to fully engage the most articulate and respected champions and authors on evolutionary theory like Dr. Kenneth Miller, author of standard high school and university biology text books. Miller has served as a key witness persuading a conservative judge that Intelligent Design should not be taught in public schools. In that court case, creationist apologists were no match for his better informed arguments. I challenge you to temporarily, if timidly, leave the safe confines of your fundamentalist thought Ghetto, breathe the fresh air of honest and open inquiry, and watch and critically engage Kenneth Miller's eloquent and engaging lecture at Notre Dame. btw, Miller is a devout Roman Catholic:

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?...F5C3FBDECE46BBB84FC5F5C3FBDECE46BBB&FORM=VIRE

Competent Christian apologetics is a function of a willingness to critically engage the most articulate and well-informed case for the contrary position. Why am I confident that few here have the intellectual integrity to watch this video?

Maybe due to the truth that there is NO real scientific proof for Evolution as Darwin and his ilk supported, and that God did indeed create all things after their own kind?

 

[utilyan]

I could be horribly wrong.

I tend to think of it all as one "animal" DNA-RNA operating system. Code.

Living and dead bit of misnomers, its all atoms and molecules. Quick and Dead prob better words.

Forming man from dust could have been the most "complex" way to describe atoms and molecules at the time.

And the actual forming could involved "evolution" certainly must involve "transmutations".

 

[Revmitchell]

Honest and open intellectual inquiry is generally alien to the evangelical mindset with reference to the evolution vs. intelligent Design debate. Instead, they rely on creationist organizations to get a biased view of the basic issues, ignoring the most respected and well-informed apologists for evolution. As a result, their views are informed by straw men that are erected so as to be dismantled to create the illusion of some sort of intellectual victory. So few evangelicals have the integrity to fully engage the most articulate and respected champions and authors on evolutionary theory like Dr. Kenneth Miller, author of standard high school and university biology text books. Miller has served as a key witness persuading a conservative judge that Intelligent Design should not be taught in public schools. In that court case, creationist apologists were no match for his better informed arguments. I challenge you to temporarily, if timidly, leave the safe confines of your fundamentalist thought Ghetto, breathe the fresh air of honest and open inquiry, and watch and critically engage Kenneth Miller's eloquent and engaging lecture at Notre Dame. btw, Miller is a devout Roman Catholic:

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?...F5C3FBDECE46BBB84FC5F5C3FBDECE46BBB&FORM=VIRE

Competent Christian apologetics is a function of a willingness to critically engage the most articulate and well-informed case for the contrary position. Why am I confident that few here have the intellectual integrity to watch this video?

Yes we get it, evangelicals are stupid and dishonest.

 

[Deadworm]

Well, now that you get it, you have another choice besides turning a discussion of one of the most important issues of our time into an ad hominem personal attack: instead, you can demonstrate your intellectual integrity by actually engaged the big bad world of tested scholarship by actually and joyvully embracing my challenge by watching Miller's lecture and engaging it in polite truth-seeking conversation.

During the Great Awakening, George Whifefield preached outdoors to 30,,000 people near Philadelphia. One skeptic climbed a true to view the spectacle, but put his hands over his ears because he didn't want to be challenged to change his perspective. But then he was swarmed by pesky flies and forced to slap at them. When he did, he heard the sermon, feel under conviction of sin, and was soundly converted.
I see myself as the swarm of flies sent to goad fundamentalists into honest and open inquiry into the truth of evolution. But I have no illusion about the problem of teasing them out of the tree of their closed-minded perspective and into the fresh air of a shared quest for truth that honors God.

 

[Revmitchell]

I also see you have read Zig Zigglars book "How to win friends and influence people" apparently his first chapter says to challenge their intellect and integrity long before you have established a relationship with them. People always like that and are encouraged to engage your wishes more.

 

[James Flagg]

[. . .] I see myself as the swarm of flies sent to goad fundamentalists into honest and open inquiry into the truth of evolution. [. . .]

You have got to be kidding.

 

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

Honest and open intellectual inquiry is generally alien to the evangelical mindset with reference to the evolution vs. intelligent Design debate. Instead, they rely on creationist organizations to get a biased view of the basic issues, ignoring the most respected and well-informed apologists for evolution. As a result, their views are informed by straw men that are erected so as to be dismantled to create the illusion of some sort of intellectual victory. So few evangelicals have the integrity to fully engage the most articulate and respected champions and authors on evolutionary theory like Dr. Kenneth Miller, author of standard high school and university biology text books. Miller has served as a key witness persuading a conservative judge that Intelligent Design should not be taught in public schools. In that court case, creationist apologists were no match for his better informed arguments. I challenge you to temporarily, if timidly, leave the safe confines of your fundamentalist thought Ghetto, breathe the fresh air of honest and open inquiry, and watch and critically engage Kenneth Miller's eloquent and engaging lecture at Notre Dame. btw, Miller is a devout Roman Catholic:

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?...F5C3FBDECE46BBB84FC5F5C3FBDECE46BBB&FORM=VIRE

Competent Christian apologetics is a function of a willingness to critically engage the most articulate and well-informed case for the contrary position. Why am I confident that few here have the intellectual integrity to watch this video?

He seems to spend an inordinate amount of time telling how he has written biased textbooks and how a judge was fooled into ruling against the concept of intelligent design. But all of that proves nothing. Perhaps you could save us some time by highlighting the part where he actually tries to make his case?

 

[Deadworm]

He seems to spend an inordinate amount of time telling how he has written biased textbooks and how a judge was fooled into ruling against the concept of intelligent design. But all of that proves nothing. Perhaps you could save us some time by highlighting the part where he actually tries to make his case?

Spoken like a typical Baptism frozen like Bambi in the headlights of well-presented truth. Why don't you show me you have an honest quest for truth by reading his excellently presented arguments yourself and then discussing them? Are you that terrified of contrary facts?

 

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

Spoken like a typical Baptism frozen like Bambi in the headlights of well-presented truth. Why don't you show me you have an honest quest for truth by reading his excellently presented arguments yourself and then discussing them? Are you that terrified of contrary facts?

You do have a winning way with words, don’t you? Your link is to a video, is it not? I saw nothing there to read. The video is over an hour and a half long. Are you suggesting that the parts I referred to are him making his case? I don’t really care who believes what, where, or when, or his view of the politics of it. All I’m interested in is what is true.

The subject is not a heavy interest of mine, but I might accept a bona fide challenge to investigate. However, your response gives the impression you’re just trolling, wanting to waste everyone’s time and toss out insults in the meantime. If you care so little about your own link, why should I care at all?

 

[Revmitchell]

Spoken like a typical Baptism frozen like Bambi in the headlights of well-presented truth. Why don't you show me you have an honest quest for truth by reading his excellently presented arguments yourself and then discussing them? Are you that terrified of contrary facts?

No one here needs to show you anything. You came here, started this thread and then demand people prove to you their intentions. I'd say that is the height of arrogance. Jeesh, and I thought calvies were arrogant.

 

[Aaron]

Honest and open intellectual inquiry is generally alien to the evangelical mindset with reference to the evolution vs. intelligent Design debate. Instead, they rely on creationist organizations to get a biased view of the basic issues, ignoring the most respected and well-informed apologists for evolution. As a result, their views are informed by straw men that are erected so as to be dismantled to create the illusion of some sort of intellectual victory. So few evangelicals have the integrity to fully engage the most articulate and respected champions and authors on evolutionary theory like Dr. Kenneth Miller, author of standard high school and university biology text books. Miller has served as a key witness persuading a conservative judge that Intelligent Design should not be taught in public schools. In that court case, creationist apologists were no match for his better informed arguments. I challenge you to temporarily, if timidly, leave the safe confines of your fundamentalist thought Ghetto, breathe the fresh air of honest and open inquiry, and watch and critically engage Kenneth Miller's eloquent and engaging lecture at Notre Dame. btw, Miller is a devout Roman Catholic:

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?...F5C3FBDECE46BBB84FC5F5C3FBDECE46BBB&FORM=VIRE

Competent Christian apologetics is a function of a willingness to critically engage the most articulate and well-informed case for the contrary position. Why am I confident that few here have the intellectual integrity to watch this video?

Whatever. Let's take it point by point, honest boy. Post one of your facts and I'll answer.

 

[church mouse guy]

Honest and open intellectual inquiry is generally alien to the evangelical mindset with reference to the evolution vs. intelligent Design debate. Instead, they rely on creationist organizations to get a biased view of the basic issues, ignoring the most respected and well-informed apologists for evolution. As a result, their views are informed by straw men that are erected so as to be dismantled to create the illusion of some sort of intellectual victory. So few evangelicals have the integrity to fully engage the most articulate and respected champions and authors on evolutionary theory like Dr. Kenneth Miller, author of standard high school and university biology text books. Miller has served as a key witness persuading a conservative judge that Intelligent Design should not be taught in public schools. In that court case, creationist apologists were no match for his better informed arguments. I challenge you to temporarily, if timidly, leave the safe confines of your fundamentalist thought Ghetto, breathe the fresh air of honest and open inquiry, and watch and critically engage Kenneth Miller's eloquent and engaging lecture at Notre Dame. btw, Miller is a devout Roman Catholic:

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?...F5C3FBDECE46BBB84FC5F5C3FBDECE46BBB&FORM=VIRE

Competent Christian apologetics is a function of a willingness to critically engage the most articulate and well-informed case for the contrary position. Why am I confident that few here have the intellectual integrity to watch this video?

Wow, did this ever miss the mark! As a Hoosier, I can tell you that Notre Dame is very liberal so chances are that Kenneth Miller is liberal, also.

Secondly, belief that God created the earth in six twenty-four hour days six thousand years ago is very much a minority belief among Fundamentalists and Evangelicals. For example, Norman Geisler, who has written about one hundred books, believes in evolution and really the list goes on and on with such people as William Lane Craig.

Thirdly, creationism may have been pushed aside by the Enlightenment but there was always a group of clergy who never accepted it, even in England, and clung to the traditional doctrine of the church for a young earth creation (YEC).

So there really is no ghetto as you charge, although I will pay tribute to Fundamentalists for standing against evolution since their beginning but Evangelicals probably have only a minority who are creationists. And you really cannot prove that the creationist scientists are anything but top notch as they are PhDs just like everyone else. To support evolution, you have to align yourself with atheists and other materialists and naturalists. As for Intelligent Design, it is not necessarily Christian so I am not sure that creationists are disappointed that they lost that battle that you mention about Intelligent Design in the schools.

 

[Deadworm]

OK, I have demonstrated the expected deafening silence of Baptists with respect to a video they are too closed-minded to even watch. That video is worth watching because (1) the trial discussed in effect destroyed the reputation of Intelligent Design advocates with the secular public and (2) Miller exposes creationist ignorance of "missing links" that support evolution. Here is a brief speech by Miller that gives just one of his arguments for human evolution from lower primates:

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?...562EFA4F727D052A2602562EFA4F727D052&FORM=VIRE

The follow-up video that pits a creationist Stephen Meyer against a skeptic Michael Shirmer is also worth watching because, in my view, the creationist gets the best of his skeptic opponent.

 

[church mouse guy]

There are no missing links and ID is not the same as YEC.

 

[Aaron]

OK, I have demonstrated the expected deafening silence of Baptists with respect to a video they are too closed-minded to even watch. That video is worth watching because (1) the trial discussed in effect destroyed the reputation of Intelligent Design advocates with the secular public and (2) Miller exposes creationist ignorance of "missing links" that support evolution. Here is a brief speech by Miller that gives just one of his arguments for human evolution from lower primates:

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?...562EFA4F727D052A2602562EFA4F727D052&FORM=VIRE

The follow-up video that pits a creationist Stephen Meyer against a skeptic Michael Shirmer is also worth watching because, in my view, the creationist gets the best of his skeptic opponent.

I'm your huckleberry.

 

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

OK, I have demonstrated the expected deafening silence of Baptists with respect to a video they are too closed-minded to even watch. That video is worth watching because (1) the trial discussed in effect destroyed the reputation of Intelligent Design advocates with the secular public and (2) Miller exposes creationist ignorance of "missing links" that support evolution.

All of this is beside the point for me. I am well aware of the trial and how it was used to publicly discredit faith in God. I am more interested in the theological motivations behind rejecting intelligent design. Even atheists admit the appearance of purposeful design in nature. Their motivations for arguing against it are strictly theological, not scientific. A Christian arguing against it calls into question his integrity on several levels. One would have to say God is not intelligent, did not create the universe, or is not the source of all nature. If Miller is not a creationist at some level, then he hardly believes in the God of the Bible, much less his Christ (see Genesis 1:1 and John 1:1-3).

 

[Deadworm]

All of this is beside the point for me. I am well aware of the trial and how it was used to publicly discredit faith in God. I am more interested in the theological motivations behind rejecting intelligent design. Even atheists admit the appearance of purposeful design in nature. Their motivations for arguing against it are strictly theological, not scientific. A Christian arguing against it calls into question his integrity on several levels. One would have to say God is not intelligent, did not create the universe, or is not the source of all nature. If Miller is not a creationist at some level, then he hardly believes in the God of the Bible, much less his Christ (see Genesis 1:1 and John 1:1-3).

Nonbaptist readers should carefully notice that the Baptists here won't consider Miller's case for evolution even when a short video is posted in which he gives one of the arguments he used at the trail, for which the pro-ID apologists had no answer! Your presumptuous critique of Miller's Christian faith is slander based on your refusal to give him a fair hearing.

Baptists here seem similarly closed-minded and unfair to Catholic distinctives. These posters have no clue as to how Catholics defend their distinctives biblically. So though a Methodist, I will start a new thread offering a pro-Catholic defense. How interesting that you guys deem me a troll just for promoting honest debate. I intend to force you to season your penchant for unsubstantiated pious bluster with a modicum of intellectual rigor. Your insults reflect on you, not on me.

 

[church mouse guy]

You represent the majority but Miller is 10 years old and his genetic debate is obsolete and there is no common ancestor. Homology only proves that God used certain attributes over and over.

As one author wrote, if humans have 24 pairs, that would show common ancestry with apes according to Miller, but since humans have 23, Miller says that shows evolution fused ape chromosones.

Miller is a naturalist.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

View attachment 2270
I'm your huckleberry.

I’m confused, are you a fairy or a blueberry?!?