Featured Why Does Satan Blind Those Born Already Blind?

Yeah, that’s what I said at the outset--just stating the obvious. You proved it according to your own presuppositions. Presuppositions, though, are not trifles. If off limits, then no real discussion is possible.

It’s kinda funny, as we agree that it’s God’s absolute sovereignty and God’s choice, and even that it’s purely and solely according to his purposes; we just don’t agree on how those apply. I suspect part of the issue lies with whose perspective is in view regarding election and predestination, but I’ll not try to get into that.

In the end, we can all say with Paul,

O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.​

 

Great question. “Logic” is the branch of philosophy concerned with whether reasons presented for a claim, if those reasons were true, would justify accepting the claim. Philosophy is the science of drawing out the truth in an argument and involves recognizing critical thinking skills which are the careful application of reason in the determination of whether a claim is true. For instance, the systematic theology based on the 5 points of the TULIP is a philosophical construct that was built through “logic”, presenting claims giving reason to justify scriptural interpretations which arrive at conclusions that are known as the TULIP. Therein, it might be said that philosophy isn’t always a perfectly applied science LOL, but on the other hand logic is the primary tool we, as human beings, use for drawing out the truth with sense, reason and intellect that God gave us in making better judgments.

Logic is important, it places the value of evidence toward establishing truth through reasoning and critical thinking skills.

For instance, it seems to me you appear to approach TULIPing like a Pentecostal approaches talking in tongues, they tell you it’s a special gift from the Holy Spirit that comes through faith, superior faith in fact, and that is why others can’t understand your/their interpretations. They often in a cult-like way attempt to prop themselves up or put “non-believers” in their “prophetic teachings” in their place through the use of scriptures, that place being “carnal”, “unable to see”, “conformed to this world” etc., etc. on anyone that disagrees with them – that is base of their argument, that is their evidence – rather than logic.

Cults leaders will typically make claims that they have supernatural insight that must be acknowledged through agreement with them and only those with “true” faith do you have the ability to see it as them, but, at least I hope, most Baptist are beyond such presenting such reasoning…

The logic behind critical thinking skills helps me to quickly recognize the failure of a person to draw out truth from within their argument and to recognize the typical rhetorical ploys people use to get others to accept their arguments while carrying no actual logical proof.

The desire to avoid logic is pretty synonymous with the desire to avoid coming to, drawing out and/or exposing the truth.

BTW, you might want to study up about Paul because he was a great philosopher and used considerable logic to argue for the truth throughout his writings.

So, how does “logic” apply to Christian reasoning? To start with, acceptance that when we learn in the Bible that God set man apart from the animals having divinely designed us in His likeness and image and He gave us sense, reason and intellect of our own which explains and demonstrates why man had the volitional ability to be prideful and disobedient to God when he chose of his own free will to acquire the knowledge of good and evil. This freely self-acquired attribute to judge between good and evil, which God foreknew man would desire, is where we would condemn ourselves to sin as only God is perfect in knowledge between good and evil. But God being Love had prepared the Way for His creatures through our love of the truth to know that only He is Good and the Judge of it and to which we must bow to our Lord in acknowledgment of this truth.

Logic is all about reasoning for truth. Every Christian should be concerned with drawing out the truth to the best of his/her ability.

We use the divinely designed mental abilities and attributes God gave us and have to deal with the consequences of the naturally acquired attribute of knowing good and evil for which God judges us. If it were true we have no judgment whatsoever between good and evil then we can’t even discern between God and the Devil, but that is not true. In pride and disobedience man freely chose to be as God to know of good and evil, and God’s response was to place upon us the responsibility to repent of those desires and NOW, using all these attributes, we must take “our hand” and also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever.

(Gen 3:22) And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Again, in creation we are given a divinely designed sense of reason and intellect [logic] and NOW we need to make another choice, and God, who knows the heart, will judge, in truth, {very important concept to maintain right there} the sincerity of that choice. God will judge whether if it was done in love for the truth which we have the ability to know and He has shown to us or perhaps rather than being thankful for their design in creation some make excuses such as in hating their fallen less than God position so much that before men they claim that they have no further responsibility of choosing which seems to me as an attempt to deny God’s true judgment of their response to His calling. But I would caution anyone who wants to use the excuse to claim a nature of only knowing darkness and inability:

(Rom 1:18) For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

(Rom 1:19) Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

(Rom 1:20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

(Rom 1:21) Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

To deny logic is to deny a sense of reason and therefore any responsibility, without such there is no true justice in judgment, and maybe some would rather make this claim of inability to know the truth thinking to justify avoid judgment, but scripture clearly tells us otherwise that all God’s ways are JUDGMENT in TRUTH:

(Deu 32:4) He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

There is only one way to avoid the consequences of judgment and that is through God’s gift of grace which He gives for love of the truth, a truth that Rom 1 makes clear is “revealed, known, shewed unto them, understood by the things that are made” so that none have an excuse.

 

Gentlemen ( and ladies ),
To me, responding with large volumes of point-by-point replies to each and every question that could be asked, whether "logically" or not would be fruitless.

I'm going to go with what Aaron basically stated:

It is written.

If you cannot reconcile " And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." ( Acts 13:48 )

and, " And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father." ( John 6:65 )

and, " Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father’s name, they bear witness of me. 26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you." ( John 10:25-26 )


With,

" For this [is] good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5 For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6 who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time." ( 1 Timothy 2:3-6 )

and,

" For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe." ( 1 Timothy 4:10 )


...in the same direction as I have ( and believe me, it didn't come to me over night, and I didn't want to pollute God's efforts by reading what other men were shown or that they had to say about it in advance ), then we are going to be at odds.

I cannot help what I see from Scripture, It's what I have come to understand from much study over many years. Now, we all know that this subject has been beaten to death for centuries, and it nver ends. What I also notice, is that most of the "debate" originates from the side who doesn't believe it. In other words, the majority of professing believers doubts the minority of them on this subject.

Whether or not you agree with this, there are some people who see it for themselves, just by reading Scripture...not Augustine and not Calvin. If you are unable to deal with this, then I'm sorry for your offense...but I will not abandon what God has shown me just to remain is step with those who see things differently...and I will not answer each and every question that could "logically" be asked. Scripture should be enough.

Philosophy is not even on the table here, and man's corrupt reasoning is part of our problem here in the flesh. God promises to transform the mind if we do what He tells us to, so...study. Constantly. Every day. For the rest of our lives. If we do, He has some things to show us that will cause us to fear and respect Him on one hand, and love Him for bothering to save us on the other.





God bless you.

 

FYI, your predestinarianism systematic theological proof-texting interpretations of scripture you have just offered are based on supporting the philosophical constructs of the TULIP whether you want to admit human reasoning [logic] behind it, or not.

 

#Revmitchell,

Take note the above is an honest answer.

 

Similar things have been said on both sides, sir, and "TULIP" was carefully derived from Scripture, not inserted into it. We could speak at length about this for hours...

However, what I'm finding, the older I get, is this:

" In the multitude of words there wanteth not sin: but he that refraineth his lips [is] wise." ( Proverbs 10:19 )





I take my leave of this thread, and may God, in His grace, show you why He saved you:

" To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved." ( Ephesians 1:6 )